Did R.D.Burman really preferred KK over Rafi?
This article is written by Mr.H.V.Guru Murthy.
A regular browser to web site mohdrafi.com, having gone through the letters of Rafi lovers would assume that R D Burman did not utilize Rafi properly, instead he preferred Kishore Kumar. Because of this reason, Rafi Fans are still upset with RDB even though he passed away a decade back.
Yes, it is true that RDB preferred KK over Rafi during early seventies. For that matter, which Music Director or Actor or Producer or Director will not have his preference. It was well known that Raj Kapoor always preferred Mukesh, Manoj Kumar preferred Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor, B.R.Chopra films had Mahendra, MD Ravi also had plenty of songs with Mahendra so also O.P after he broke with Rafi. Similarly OP always had either Asha or Geetha Dutt and never Lata. Salil also used all other Singers. Director Subba Rao insisted on Mukesh for SAATHI even though the hero was Rajendra Kumar and MD Naushad, two Rafi Fans. Even Kalyanji Anandji had many films with Mahendra Kapoor, Mukesh and KK even though Rafi was instrumental in their raise through JAB JAB PHOOL KHILE, AAMNE SAAMNE, etc. LP, by all means Rafi Bhakts, used KK regularly in the early seventies even for Rafi heroes like Jeetendra, Dharmendra, etc. SJ also switched over to KK in movies like MAIN SUNDAR HOON, DIL DAULAT DUNIYA, KAL AAJ AUR KAL, etc. Of course, the music standard came down a notch or two in that period. But, well, it is their prerogative to have whomsoever they wanted though I am sure in heart of heart, why even openly, they would have admitted the superiority of Rafi over all other Singers. Similarly, RDB also used KK for almost all his movies in the early seventies as perhaps he had some special chemistry with him.
However, let us not forget that RDB used Rafi extensively during late sixties as his main playback singer right from the first movie. He gave hit music with Rafi in TEESRI MANZIL, NAQLI NAWAAB, CARAVAN, PYAAR KA MAUSAM, THE TRAIN, ABHILASHA, ADHIKAR, RATON KA RAAJA, etc. Later during late seventies he returned to Rafi and gave hits like SHAAN, HUM KISISE KUM NAHIN, ABDULLAH, ZAMANE KO DIKHANA HAI, etc. In between, he had Rafi in CHANDI SONA qawali with Mannadey (Ek Shok Hasina Se), YADON KI BAARAT (Title song and who can forget the duet with Asha Chura Liya Hai Tumne), DIL KA BAADSHAH (this Raj Kumar starrer had all songs by Rafi), THE GREAT GAMBLER (Raftasa Mera Naam), SHEHZADA (Solo Tere Attaroo and duet with Lata Kaahe Ko Bulaya), etc.
If a person cannot appreciate the greatness of Rafi, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music. Of course, RDB was a good MD though not a great MD like Naushad, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar, SDB, etc. RD would have definitely known the great qualities of Rafi, the Singer. Just because he did not use Rafi extensively as one would expect, let us not degrade this MD who gave us some good songs in CHANDAN KA PALNA, PADOSAN, HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA, MERE JEEVAN SAATHI, AJNABEE, AMAR PREM, SANAM TERI KASAM, BHOOT BANGLA, BAHARON KE SAPNE (Rafi solo Zamane Ne Maare), PARICHAY, KINAARA, APNA DESH, ZAHREELA INSAAN, RAMPUR KA LAKSHAMAN (Pyaar Ka Samay with Lata, KK and Rafi), 1942 – A LOVE STORY, KATI PATANG to certain extent, etc. though he gave some very mediocre music in films like DEEWAR, SHOLAY, KITAAB, ZAKHMEE, RAFOO CHAKKAR, NAMKEEN, DHARAM KARAM and BIWI O BIWI (so un-RK film like), etc. so many forgettable movies as for as music was concerned.
The irony of RDB was either he gave good music or petered out to a very mediocre music in so many films. I read some where that Shashi Kapoor called RD as National Anthem Music Director. In those days, theatres used to play National Anthem at the end of the movie and the Hall doors used to be shut till the completion of the Anthem. As soon as the Anthem used to commence, our in-disciplined people used to rush to the Hall Door and wait for the door opening. Similarly, whenever RDB songs commenced in most of the movies, people used to rush to toilet.
Still, it is not fair that we use harsh and sometimes, un-parliamentary language against any body if they differ with our views. We cannot forget the contribution of all these MDs, Heroes, Singers, Directors, etc. in making the Indian Film Music so rich.
In Hindi film industry, imperfect hindi diction made a great impact on the career of so many talented personnel. For example, Yesudass, SPB, B.Sarojadevi, Padmini, Kamal Hassan, Rajnikanth, Gemini Ganeshan, Chiranjeevi, Venkatesh, Kanchana, Jayanti, etc. tried their hand in Hoindi Film Industry, but could not suceed to that extent as they were successful in the South Indian Films. They were all highly talented and had mass following in the South, but perhaps due to their diction and to certain extent their typical South Indian looks, they could not make that big a mark in Hindi. The only three Southern artistes who really succeeded in Hindi were Vyjayantimala, Jaya Pradha and Sridevi.
Mr.XXX:
I don’t have much of an idea why LP and RDB chose to stay away from Yesudas sir’s golden voice. I think it’s a complex issue and I agree fully with Mr.Myk that perhaps they didn’t feel the need to call upon Yesudas sir. It can’t be a matter of styles since Yesudas sir is good at almost everything and LP and RDB could compose them all (from heavy classical stuff to the light and breezy typical ’70s things). Perhaps Das sir’s less-than-perfect Hindi diction had something to do too. I have with me Das sir’s version of why he left HFM when he did but I feel it’s inappropriate to debate it here. Generally speaking it all comes down to (IMO) rapport and commercial viability. Certain people like to and feel comfortable to work with and associate themselves with certain others (as long as they are doing well, commercially).
Mukesh was also there, and him along with Rafi and Kishore all being there, could have been another reason why Yesudas wasn’t really used by many composers in HFM.
The Burmans didn’t make good use of Mukesh as much as others, but RR and Mukesh would have been an interesting combo. I think they came together in around three songs, and Mukesh sadly passed away before RR could use him more.
Mr. XXX,
Indeed “Cham cham barse ghata” shows Pancham’s influence on RR, you are spot on in mentioning this. From the twin-track effect, to the rhythm, the madal, tabla, and reso, as well as the variations in different instruments. RR also could play around with different instruments with the same finesse as Pancham. If one didn’t know that this song was composed by RR, one could guess that Pancham was behind this, however you can tell the difference, as RR had his own unique style, and both composers left their trademarks in their compositions.
I am not sure why LP and Pancham didn’t make use of Yesudas, but I think they felt they didn’t really need him to sing their songs, with Rafi there, and Kishore next. On the other hand, both composers made good use of SPB, another southern great.
RR used Yesudas in Swami and came out with excellent results, in “Kya karoon sajni” and “Aaj ki raat”.
mr. anil cherian
“rajnigandha” was release of 1974 having music of salil da, here is the link to the one of the song from this movie, just check out that how well salil could mix up the indian classical with western music, genious composer!!..
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PP4sllE7wBM
there are are many excellent songs from late 70s by rd,lp,rr and ravindra jain, try to listen these composers from late 70s::
by the way what is your take on this beautiful composition by rajesh roshan from jay-vijay::
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jTxj7gZGFPA
here is masterpeice composition by jaidev with yesu from aalap(1977)::
http://www.esnips.com/doc/938ff031-e104-4818-a07b-7cd202c234ef/Koi_Gata_Main_So_Jata–Yesudas
mr.myk and mr.cherian,
any guesses, why lp and rd maintained the distance from golden voice of yesu in late 70s and 80s?…
mr.myk,
thanks for the wonderful description of those two rafi duets. i agree with you that rr’s “chham chham barse ghata” is slightly better as rr maintained the indian touch ,what i liked in this song is the nice use of twin sound effect in the line “aaja re…”, notice that aaja re has the same notes involved, one at lower pitch and other at higher pitch, its beautiful!.
by the way this song shows the pancham’s influence in rr, what do you think? that twin sound effect plus the use of reso with rhythm.
Haldar Sir:
Listened to the links, nice songs. None of these tunes Salilda has used in Malayalam. What effect Rafisahab brought into the ‘Kabuliwala’ song (I’m hearing it for the first time)- different styles, accents and even voices for all those characters ( 7 or 8 of them). It’s a pity Salilda didn’t produce more such pieces with the ‘baadshah’…
Mr.XXX:
Actually, I haven’t heard much songs from the late ’70s. I believe this period doesn’t have much to offer by way of good music, with action-revenge films ruling the box-office. I also like Satyam Sivam Sundaram and Sargam plus ‘Dard-e-dil….’, ‘Mere dost qissa…’ (despite Rafisahab sounding a bit off-peak) and ‘Parda hai parda…’. Is ‘Rajnigandha’ a film of this period and is it composed by LP? Could you suggest some good songs from this period (’76-’80)?
Mr. XXX,
How would you rate these two songs, “Dil sajan jalta hai” (Mukti), and “Cham cham barse ghata” (Priyatama) both sung by Asha. The first one is composed by RD, and the second by RR. Both songs use the multi-track feature, and both were released in 1977. I think the Priyatama song is slightly better, I feel it has better orchestration and melody. RD made good use of the multi-track feature, remember “katra katra” from Ijaazat, but in this case I feel RR beat RD at his own game.
What are your views ?.
Mr. Cherian,
LP always had the upper hand commercially right from the time they took over from S-J. RD never broke through their reign, even though his music also sold a lot as well.
You asked for some Rafi-RR songs, here are some:
Dil Ki Kali Yuhin Sada – Inkaar (1977)
Tumse Nahin Pehchan – Ek Hi Raasta – (1977)
Teri Palkon Mein – Jay Vijay (1977)
Kya Mausam Hai – Doosra Aadmi – (1978)
Bahon Mein Teri Masti – Kaala Patthar (1979)
Mujhe Chhu Rahi Hain – Swayamvar (1980)
Aag Hai Lagi Hui – Swarg Narak (1978)
Logon Ka Dil – Man Pasand (1980)
Yaar Tere Sab Naach – Shakka (1981)
Naraazgi Yeh Aap Ki – Unees Bees (1980)
Please give your views on the RR-Rafi combo.
I forgot to add, I feel those two songs are among the two best duets of 1980. There are others as well, including “Mohabbat rang laayegi” from Poonam composed by Anu Malik in which Rafi again gives us his magic. This is one of Anu Malik’s all time best creations, and again would make it to my list of the best 80’s duets. Then how about “Bheegi Bheegi vaadi mein” from Dil Hi Dil Mein by Mandhir-Jatin (Jatin of Jatin-Lalit with his elder brother before he teamed up with his younger bro), another beautiful duet, Rafi and Sulakshana Pandit. “Naraazgi yeh aap ki” from Unees Bees composed by RR, sung by Rafi and Suman is another masterpiece.
Mr. XXX,
I feel “Mujhe chhu rahi hain” along with “pal do pal ka saath hamara” are the two best duets of 1980 and among the top ten duets and songs of the whole 80’s decade. These two songs were a sign for things to come with the RD-Rafi and RR-Rafi combo in the 80’s.
Also, notice how in “Mujhe chhu rahi hain” RR gives a peaceful and bliss feeling, and very creative orchestration as well.
Mr. XXX,
Thanks a lot for your reply. Yes, I feel RD has the upper hand in classy music, but I feel RR also created classy music in the 70’s as well in albums such as Swami, Des Pardes, Doosra Aadmi and other films. RD had more of a chance to do classical themes, something which RR might have not got the chance to work with. I think RD had the upper hand when it came to classical songs, but RR definitely had talent in this genre too. Thanks for mentioning the Anwar interview, I wish Rafi-saab had sung these songs, but Anwar did a good job.
You mentioned two of my most favourite duets. It is hard for me to choose which one I like better, as I love both equally. Here is my take on both of them:
“Mohabbat mein aji kya” is in my view Pancham’s best duet of 1978 and one of his best late 70’s duets as well. It is Rafi who injects soul into this song, listen to how he sings “wada sanam lelo, tum ko hi kasam lelo”, he brings melody, and this was a fresh tune from Pancham. Lata is great too but Rafi makes the song very memorable. The flight of words, the voices, the lyrics are all excellent. In the period 1975-1980, Pancham showed his class as a composer, where he concentrated on melody, and soulful music along with his trademark style of music. This duet is an example of what kinds of songs he created during that time. There is some Dada Burman influence in this duet too, but it has the Pancham stamp all over. Notice the rhythm variations, the guitar, santoor, accordion, flute, and violins are all used very nicely. Notice the difference when Rafi starts off the third stanza with “chhodo sawal yeh, ab tum jawab do”, the punch he brings, which is much more than Lata when she starts the first and second stanza’s. If Pancham had given “Aap ki aankhon mein kuch” from Ghar to Rafi, it would have reached the class of the Phandebaaz duet, but unfortunately Kishore did not do enough justice to that song.
“Mujhe chhu rahi hain” is a Rafi song all the way. Lata gives excellent company to Rafi here, but Rafi-saab holds center-stage here. This is an example of the type of beautiful songs RR could create. I think this song ranks as one of RR’s top five duets of all time. It has such a beautiful melody, listening to Rafi-saab is pure bliss. RR was able to extract something extra from all of his singers, and this includes Rafi-saab as well. The orchestration is fantastic, the guitar has been used as an accompaniment to the main rhythm throughout the whole song, and the violins are a treat. The song brings out romance at its best and Gulzar’s lyrics also add another nice demension to the song. This is an example of what Rafi could do with Gulzar’s lyrics, and that is turn them into gold. I feel bad that RD wasted his lyrics with Kishore, only Lata was there to save them. The only true good Rafi-RD song with Gulzar is “jab ek kaza se guzro to” another gem of a song. Here RR made the perfect choice in giving this masterpiece from Swayamvar to Rafi. When Rafi sings “pata chal gaya hai manzil kahan hai” notice the sweetness and the melody, it feels like you’re in heaven, only Rafi can give such a feeling and no one else.
Post 776 haldar ji…
we respect salil da for his greatest contributions to hfm and regional and malayalam movies. at a function : dilip kumar the chief guest had commented : “if salil had not gone for his second marriage : then he would have been one of the greatest successful composers”.
now a film historian and a veteran tells me that salil da went to jail for about 2 years. he was bailed out by rajni patel ( a barrister, congress leader and amisha patels grandfather ) and dilip kumar. is this true?……
ego and anger truly will kill anyone – a thousand times….
binu nair…,.
mr.myk,
how would you compare these rafi-lata duets- “mujhe chhoo rahi hain” and “mohabbat mein aji kya” … first one by rr and next one by rd.
which one is yours fav???
mr. anil cherian,
if you are asking of commercial success than l-p were way ahead of others with four consecutive awards from late 70s. rd trembled commercially in 80s but l-p managed to be on top , unfortunately they shared the space with none other than bappi(commercially most successful md of 80s).. and as far as quality is concerned than satyam shivam sundaram, sargam and anurodh are my fav albums by l-p from late 70s.. mr.cherian, may i know your favs by l-p from late 70s??
rr’s actual contemporaries were rj,bappi etc, and among them rr was far more versatile… however i also like rj but rr was more versatile and slightly better.
mr.myk,
if we only consider the period of 1975-81 than rr is definitely a nice md, his music was fresh with nice orchestration, the greatness of the md should judge by the quality of his composition and by that token rr was great, his selection of kishore for most of his compositions was definitely influnced by the producer’s own decisions, however kishore did nice job with rr, kishore was lucky that he got rd for earlier half rr for later half of 70s, just look at the quality and freshness from kati-patang to aandhi and julie to do aur do paanch.
rr gave chance to anwar in janta hawaldar but this was actually the combined decision of rajesh khanna and mehmood as told by anwar himself in sangeet ke sitaro ki mehfil.
when compared to rdb than he is comparatively weaker in classy genre, i think instead of rr, rdb inherited two of the good features of roshan sahab,1.quawwali 2.delighting use of raag yaman ..
however i must say that he was the one of the best from 70s, listen to “hoto pe geet jaage” its totally a different kind of melody, or “main akela apni dhun mein magan” by kishore or duet “mujhe chhoo rahi hain” by rafi-lata…
regarding your question(b)– i think l-p and k-a established themselves much before pancham, rd came out with trendsetting score in 60s but l-p and k-a were definitely better than him in 60s, k-a’s association with mukesh and rafi was pure gold from that era.. rr’s entry is very late but rdb was very much active by that time, so we can include rr into rd’s contemporaries and i think only rr managed to challange rd in his genre, and remove hkkn than rr would beat him easily…
(d)i have no clue why he preferred kk so much but one thing we sholud appreciate that he hardly exposed any weakness of kk, infact as you mentioned that he exploited softer side of kishore..
and from later half of 70s i would like to rate rd-rafi combo over rr-rafi combo as they hardly left any genre untouched. to further illustrate here are few of the songs from late 70s by rd-rafi::
1.kahe ko bulaya
2.mohabbat mein aji kya
3.ye ladka haye alla
4.makhan chor nand kishore
5.pyar hai ek nishaan
6.nagma hamara
7.hai agar dusman
8.kya hua tera vaada
9.jab ek kaza se gujaro
10.pucho na yaar kya hua
11.hum jab ek saath hain
12.pal do pal ka saath
13.maine poocha chand se
14.janu meri jaan
15.kaun kisi ko baandh saka …
Mr.XXX, Mr.Myk:
Could you list out some Rafi-RR scores (duets and solos) with the year of release of the film. Thank you. And may I repeat my querry on RDB, did he rule in the period ’76-’80 or did LP (finally) got a measure of him in this period? (I’m speaking more from a commercial angle than an artistic one).
Haldar Sir:
Thanks for the reply. I didn’t imply that Salilda and KK associated well. Actually I didn’t make myself clear enough. My question was why Salilda (one Bengali) preferred Mannada and Mukeshji to Rafisahab while RDB (and SDB?)-another bengali- preferred KK to Rafisahab?
Pleased to know that you follow Salilda tunes of Malayalam movies. I’m a great admirer of his Malayalam tunes ( I believe some of these tunes are original) and consider him a real genius. And I’m not the only one in my State who think the same way; as you said, he has a huge fan following (even now) and he started a trend which was followed by other noted MDs like Shyam. By the way have you noticed that his major weapon in Malayalam was K J Yesudas (a singer in the Rafi mould) and not Jayachandran (a singer resembling Talat or Mukesh more than Rafi).
Coming to Mannada’s voice, I consider it a cross between Rafisahab’s and KK’s. It is a rather smooth (though not as smooth as Rafisahab’s voice), a bit coarse (though not as much as KK’s, generally speaking) and lighter than both’s.
And you haven’t answered my other querry (why so little SDB-Rafi combos after ‘Guide’). Incase you don’t want to debate it here, could you mail me @ anilcherianca@yahoo.com?
I’ll comeback later after listening to all the links.
Mr.Myk:
Thanks for correcting me. Yes, Rafisahab synced well with the young brigade also and they extracted great things from him.
At the end of the day, these things (whether a particular MD preferred him or not) doesn’t really matter (to Rafisahab). He has such a huge number of memorable songs under his belt, sung as only he can. If RDB (or even SDB) didn’t really care to give him more, it’s their loss.. But it’s a pity that we people have been denied of some more treasures.. You know, with Rafisahab, one can’t have enough.
All:
I was listening to ‘mein shayar to nahin…’. It’s obvoius that this particular song was composed with Rafisahab in mind, with all those swift note-switches and the asymmetric yet smooth flow. Sure, the song gave a good opening to a budding singer, but just wish they gave the song to the one who would’ve sung it the way it was meant to be sung.
Btw, Mr. XXX, for point c), do you think the RR-Rafi combo also had variety ?.
Surprisingly, RR gave Anwar a break in Janta Hawaldar, when Rafi was alive in 1979. RR was known to give many singers a break, but imagine those songs in Rafi saab’s voice, they would have been amazing classics. Yesudas also sang for RR in Swami, those were nice songs as well.
Mr. XXX,
I think Salil’s violins had their own class, he was definitely influenced by Mozart, Bach and western symphonies, but I would rate SJ’s violins better than Salil’s. SJ’s violins also had a Mozart touch to them, they were grand, classy and magical, they were the true pioneers when it comes to violins. Salil was a composer with a surprise element, not only were his tunes surprising, they would cover a span of notes, but his music was surprising as well. He definitely used his instruments well and was creative when it came to his arrangements. Talking of Mozart, I feel Rajesh Roshan also had that western symphony element when it came to his violins.
Mr. XXX, I have four questions for you, please give your answers for all of them:
a) Please tell me how you would rate RR compared to RDB ?. This is the same question you asked me a while back. Where do you think RR scored over RDB and vice-versa ?. The more I listen to RR, the more I feel he could have gone on to accomplish much more, he was a rare talent. I heard he had personal problems that affected his career. Anyhow, his body of work is still excellent.
b) Would you call RR a contemporary of RDB ?. The two did work in the same time frame. The major contemporaries of Pancham were LP and KA, and they were also in the same age group. RR was much younger than all of them, and Junior Roshan along with Bappi, Anu Malik etc. formed another generation of composers.
c) We talked about how Pancham was one of Rafi’s best composers from 77-80, and their combo had a lot of variety during that time. How would you rate the Rafi-RR combo from 77-80, and compare this combo to the Rafi-RD combo during that time ?. RR only got a solid five years to work with Rafi, not a lot of time, but still they came up with many gems, and RR was also one of Rafi’s best latter-day composers and definitely the young composer (of RR’s generation) with which he had the most fruitful association. They would have worked more in the 80’s, but Rafi saab unfortunately passed away.
d) RR composed many great solos and duets for Rafi-saab, but I have noticed that there are quite a few more duets for Rafi-saab as opposed to solo’s. This ofcourse doesn’t matter, a song is a song, and both duets and solo’s are ofcourse excellent. However I would like to know from you why he did this, and why did he give his other solo’s to KK ?.
From KK’s 160 songs for RR, there are around 50 odd solos and the rest duets, so in this case its a similar scenario. Not that this all matters, I’m just curious to know why the ratio is like this in both Rafi and KK cases under RR.
ref post 761:
mr. cherian, I won’t call manna dey’s voice coarse. In fact, he had a very smooth and polished voice. Listen to this salil composition for manna in us ne kaha tha and tell me what you think:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nJ0eQSK2RLA
See how he superimposes manna’s voice with the female voice and uses the chorus as background music. Absolutely brilliant!
Salil also did wonders with Talat’s silken voice; here’s a personal favourite of mine from chhaya:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lA9NZ6br5no
But his main weapon was the nightingale. If you talk to her fans, then you will know where they place him. Contrary to your belief, salil hardly did anything outstanding with kishore. In fact, I don’t think kishore’s heavy, (sometimes) coarse voice suited his style of music. Other than his home state, salil has a large following in your state. Listen to p. susheela’s song in rasa leela; it came out around 1975, a year earlier than kishore’s “maujon ki doli chali re” (jeevan jyoti). Then listen to the same tune in the nightingale’s voice in a bengali song “kano kichhu kotha bolo na”, which was released in the 60s. Compare them and see who comes out on top and who sounds the worst.
Salil was a creative genius: a writer, a poet, a lyricist, a music director and an instrumentalist. If sir salil had anything bigger than his talent, it was his ego. In the rough and tumble music world, you sometimes have to swallow your pride and play to the gallery; in short, you need to be flexible.
It is not proper to discuss sir salil in this forum because he didn’t work that much with rafi saab. But he always held rafi saab in the highest regard. I have my theory on the maya incident, but I don’t want to spark off another controversy. For now, let’s listen to rafi’s song from kabuliwala, sung in pakhtooni style:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bhiWEkZ6vIM
Mr. Anil Cherian,
L-P and K-A also belonged to the same brigade as RDB, and look at what they were able to extract from Rafi-saab. These two composing duos were contemporaries of Pancham and they were all around a similar age. Even Jaikishan wasn’t that much older than all of them, but since S-J started in 1949, it looks as if he was much older than these composers when he wasn’t. RDB also managed to extract great things from Rafi but he could have even more, something he realized later on.
Look at Rajesh Roshan, he was the young composer with whom Rafi resonated the best. RR also extracted great things from the Golden Voice. Rafi managed to be in sync with every composer, old or young, he was truly the King.
it doesn’t matter how much sd preffered rafi for his compositions, please focus on their qualities, quantity is less i know but those 96 songs will always featured in very best of rafi ji and best songs of all time, and here are my fav 6 from this association::
1.tere mere sapne
2.jinhe naaz hai hind par
3.ye mehlo ye takhto
4.dekhi zamane ki yaari
5.din dhal jaaye
6.kya se kya ho gya…..
mr.myk,
nasir hussain banner indeed was the most important banner for the pancham, as you mentioned earlier that jaikishan from s-j congratulated pancham for his tm score, but i think he was not only impressed but get influnced by tm also, as there is a same jazzy feel in the albums of the s-j from the late 60s, in short-pancham’s tm tunes became the signature tunes for the late 60s..
by the way earlier we discussed the orchestration of western mould mds(sj,rd,rr) but i think we missed the important name salil chowdhary, how would you compare the orchestration of s-j and salil, as a md s-j were miles ahead of salil but as an arranger how would you compare salil and s-j, i think as an arranger salil was great, his arrangements were great and . s-j’s arrangements were nice too but in many cases they were similar(specially for rk productions), and how would you compare their use of violins?? both of themm created great symphonies with their violins..
ref to p 743 of mr.hans
“another reason was that since pyaasa sdb was being acclaimed for the first time as a great md. earlier he had been just above average”
oh really!! but let me tell you something in accordance with popular view that sdb was a great bengali folk singer of 30s and a famous composer of late 40s,and if he was really just above average than could you pls tell me why madan mohan and manna assisted him in late 40s??and later with the release of baazi(1951) he became the commercially successful md as well.. now here is something for you, list of the great albums by dada pre-1957,just to refresh your memory::
1.devdas
2.taxi driver
3.funtoosh
4.house no.44
5.baazi
6.jaal
7.shenshah
8.munimji
9.mashal
10.bahar
11.naujawan …
naushad, s d burman and c ramchandra were three of the best mds from the 50s, i don’t think that any of the md came close to the quality plus impact of these three(in 50s), and pls note that iam a pure north indian, not a bengali… sj,mm and roshan also showed there class in 50s and overall they were great but comparatively weaker in 50s…
regarding other bengali mds salil, anil biswas and pancham:: although pancham showed his brilliance in many movies but at the same time he came up with trash as well so its tough for me to rank him along with truly great mds.. salil and anil biswas were truly great mds beyond any doubt, leave salil’s other movies,his “parakh” is enough for me to rank him along with truly great mds but his case is weaker when compared to sj, naushad etc ..
ref.mail 765,you have written that rafi saab sang `kya hua tera vaada`in a
high pitch,if you have indian feelings,jab dard hotha hai to aadmi ki pitch high hoti hai`,the song had to be on a high pitch,so that the listner can feel ki dil se aawaz nikal rahi hai,Rafi saab vaise bhi dil se gaana gate the,naki paisa ke liye nahi. hope this clarifies because jab dard hotha hai awaaz dil se nilkalti hai.
Post 765.
Agree with you that RDB preferred KK style over Rafi’s. But again, what’s exactly KK style? Isn’t that style fine-tuned by RDB himself?
Actually RDB was much more comfortable with KK than Rafi sahab,as mentioned by many of the knowledgable people in this thread. Afterall Rafisahab was already an icon by the time RDB started his career and was very much part of the old brigade comprising of his father too. RDB might have found it a bit too difficult to get exactly he wanted from such a singer. With KK he could do what he wanted (just as SJ did with Rafisahab). Once KK was made part of a saleable package, there is no way RDB could have gone back to Rafisahab (even for a breather). I suppose this explains Rafisahab’s absence in RDB’s recording room for such a long time.
Coming to ‘Kya hua..’ and ‘yaad hain mujhko…’ I can’t find anything wrong.. at this pitch one can’t be too soft. Indeed in that entire song (and other songs from HKKN), Rafisahab sounded deeper than usual and I believe RDB has a role to play here.
KK’s sad songs aren’t superior to Rafisahab’s, they are much too simpler. ‘Mere bheegi bheegi..’ never goes past the 2nd octave, like most of KK songs (whether sad or happy). When one has a deep, husky voice and a tune like ‘mere bheegi…’ with him, it’s very easy to sound “sad without screaming it’s sad”. Just compare this song with “ghum uthane ke liye…” or “rang aur noor…”, “pathar ke sanam….”, “dil ke jharoke mein…” or for that matter any sad song of Rafisahab. These songs cover three octaves and that too with frequent switching of notes. It’s just another ball game altogether. One may not find too many Rafisahab songs which give the ‘mere bheegi..’ feel simply because such songs aren’t there in large numbers. A Noushad saab, MM, or SJ never called upon Rafi sahab to sing a song that confined itself to 7-8 notes and moved in a steady, predictable pattern.
akshay ji : i liked your analysis for its crisp and clear. but how can one forget the gem : kya se kya ho gaya which have so much of oozing sadness and what about the kashmir ki kali song : hai duniya usike , zamana usika…. another sad song.
the scale of the song : meri bheegi bheegi si is different, no need to raise the voice at tall and comparison of songs should be of the same scale I believe.
and truly rafi belonged to all and there is no need of bringing bengalee-ism to any topic. rafi got on well with almost everyone and the friction he had with certain composers/lady singers were due to human behaviour common to everyone. rafi was human too…
binu nair
Akshayji,
If you are taliking about sad songs sung at lower pitch, then what about the following Rafi songs.
1. Din Dhal Jaye from Guide.
2. Yahan Main Ajnabi Hun from Jab Jab Phool Khile.
3. Yaad Na Jaye from Dil Ek Mandir.
4. Hui Shaam Unka from Mere Humdam Mere Dost.
5. Saari Khushiyan Hai from Suhana Safar.
6. Saathi Na Koi Manzil from Bambai Ka Babu.
7. Sunle Tu Dilki Sada from Tere Ghar Ke Saamne.
8. Mere Dost Kissa from Dostana.
9. Hum Bekhudi Main from Kala Paani.
10. Ye Aansoon Mere from Humrahi.
11. Dil Ka Suna Saanz from Ek Naari Do Roop.
12. Nasseb Me Jiske Jo Likha Tha from Do Badan.
Well, when one counts Rafi’s songs of any type, as usual the list becomes very big.
“Kishore was the most commercially successful voice of the 70s”
Only for around four years, not longer than that. Those four years were KK’s peak years, from 72-76, and yet Rafi’s voice was commercially successful big time in those four years as well, just like it was commercially successful big time every year.
Rafi was the most commercially successful voice of all time, including in the 70’s.
The beauty of Rafi’s sad songs, is that they have so much depth and feeling, something Kishore could not replicate. The only singer besides Rafi who was amazing at sad songs was Mukesh. Kishore sang sad songs straight, there wasn’t any variation. There is no difference between a “Zindagi ka safar” from KA, “Zindagi ke safar mein guzar” from RD, or “Badi sooni sooni hai” from SD. The only MD who made him sing with slight variation was Rajesh Roshan, who was able to extract something out of KK’s voice that others could not. Rafi’s sad songs have so much variation and variety, and he takes them to a whole new level.
KK could not make it as a singer early on which is why he resorted to acting, that’s the truth, whether anyone wants to accept it or not. RDB’s best was also with Rafi.
SDB recorded the solos of Guide and told Kishore Kumar that he couldn’t do justice to those? This is an internet rumor. What is the source of this?
How often an MD uses a singer doesn’t equate to how much he likes the singer. Hemant Kumar though very highly of Rafi. Salil Choudhury also held Rafi in high esteem when judging Rafi from a qualitatively musical perspective.
Sure Rafi was human – but it’s unlikely he’d speak in earthy Punjabi words. I think Raju B is full of it – as usual.
SD Burman didn’t often use Kishore in the 1958-1965 period because: Kishore was busy with his acting career. He begged and pleaded with SD Burman to let him be. True Kishore always wanted to be a singer, came to Bombay to sing, but he did give first priority to singing during this period give because of Ashok Kumar’s advice and his great success as a movie star. Only at this point in 1958 did SD Burman turn to Rafi – and realize what a supreme singer Rafi was.
RD Burman preferred the Kishore style over the Rafi style. I can see why he wasn’t happy with Kya Hua Tera Vada. There’s one thing about Rafi’s sad songs – they always scream out and say to you “Hey, I’m a sad song”! Kishore’s sad songs are very very sad but don’t need to scream out and tell you. Meri Bheeghi Bheeghi Si from Anamika is such a song. Can anyone give me a song from Rafi that can correspond or is similar to “Meri Bheeghi Bheeghi Si”. A sad song that doesn’t scream out and say I’m sad but the audience realizes it just by the expression? I can think of Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon as such but I was hoping for something closer. Let me clarify that I’m not asking for a sad song of EQUAL quality (Rafi has too many of those) – I’m asking for a song of similar style.
Look at a song like Kya Hua Tera Vada where Rafi goes to high pitch and sings “Yaad Hai Mujho” – some music lovers don’t like that part. Admittedly, I’m not sure if Rafi is to be blamed as the composer tells him how to sing. Perhaps RD wanted it differently, perhaps had he worked with Kishore, the song would have been further modified to RD’s liking. That is only but speculation so it can’t be worth much. Din Dhal Jaye, however, is one outstanding example from Rafi that breaks my accusation.
It’s not fair to hold against RD Burman for choosing Kishore over Rafi. Just like the way we Rafi fans prefer Rafi over Kishore. RD’s best was with Kishore, Kishore was the most commercially successful voice of the 70s, and you can’t blame RD for sticking with Kishore.
RD Burman was a great composer. In terms of quality – I rate him ahead of his contemporaries. He is just as good as top tier 1 MDs. Just my opinion.
Rafi and Bengalis got along very very well. If there was any issues – they are no different than the everyday instance where one fool from a particular religion, country, etc discriminates against others.
Mr. Anil Cherian,
It’s true RD didn’t take Rafi for many songs in the 72-76 period, but it was a combination of various factors. During this time Rafi had also cut down on his singing, Binu-ji mentioned that RD went to Rafi’s house to persuade him to sing for him. Also, RD did try and promote KK in a big way but that was his mistake, and in the end it hurt him. Rafi still did sing gems for RD in this phase, but it could have been more, and I’m not sure why Rafi’s presence in RD’s recording room was less during this period. Mr. Korti once mentioned that RD may have been led on by other influences, hence the little use of Rafi from 72-76. Whatever the case, RD made a mistake and realized it later on.
Post 759 : toufiq ji…. lata it seems always wanted to score points with every one not alone rafi ji and you are right on the spot. rafi has in fact overtaken lata in the maya songs and salil was “unfair” to rafi if the episode is truly riported.
but here is a fact in which salil had a spat with lata. it was the occassion of 25 years of celebration of Salil’s music at the shanmukhananda hall. salil invited lata and she refused to attend the functiion. salil told her : you have sung 90% of my songs and how you can refuse me. lata was adament; she said if she attends this function she has to attend other similar functions too and this resulted a bad taste. but, lata did depute asha and usha and they sang some of the great tunes of salil.
I was at the function for two days and this is a first hand account of the episode.
so lata ji having spats with everyone except you and me is natural.
binu nair. mumbai
Ref – 760
RDB biggest mistake was under utilization of Rafi and over utilization of KK between 72-76. This showed the effect in 80s when Rafi and Mukesh were not there. Since RDB had done every possible experimentation with KK’s voice in the 70s, there was hardly any thing left in 80s to explore. As a result RDB’s use of KK appeared to be repetative. It cannot be considered bad in any way, but it did not create an impact either, the way it was in early 70s.
Bhappi’s success couldn’t have affected RDB in any way in 80s. RDB is a far superior composer than Bhappi on par with LP, KA & RR. RDB cannot get much success with new singers of the 80s. Being a high calibre MD expectations from big banners film makers and the audience from RDB was always more. In other words RDB was beaten by own mistakes in the 70s.
Haldar Sir:
I think Mr.Hans has gone rather overboard (esp. with his “Bengali” thing). But don’t you think SDB did promote KK in a big way at the cost of Rafisahab? How else can one explain this situation of Rafi sahab singing just 3 solos for SDB after the great success named ‘Guide’? Could you also tell us why Salilda mostly stayed away from Rafisahab? Do you think Bengali MDs prefer a slightly coarser, earthy kind of voice (KK, Mannada or even Mukeshji) to the more polished one?
Mr.Myk:
It’s true that RDB composed many good songs for Rafisahab. However it’s also true that he didn’t really want Rafisahab to be in contention (when it comes to popularity) during the ‘wave’; after all he is the one who engineerd the wave. Out of the songs that you have listed, I suppose most of them came before ‘the phase’ (’72-’76) and the balance after it. There were very few songs given to Rafisahab during this phase which were designed to be popular. Actually there’s nothing wrong in promoting one’s buddy (after all one can’t promote one’s enemy, right?) and traditional Indian music is so vast and rich that RDB could create gems as well as crowd-pullers (these two don’t always go hand in hand) without the iconic Rafi sahab. When he ultimately gave one such song (a sure-shot hit), what happened? The king was back to his winning (of crowds) ways and even this song, I understand, was given to Rafisahab out of compulsion rather than preference. I personally don’t think there is any regional factor, it’s just that the son (like his father) simply liked this wonderful character from Bengal, vibed with him better than he did with Rafisahab and went on to create a legacy.
Mr.Rafian:
Many of the songs are good, in the process of listening to the unfamiliar ones (there are 5-6). What’s ur take on the song ‘aaya re khilonawala…’? Is it from this period? And ‘sargam’ and ‘asha’ songs?
All:
RDB was the king during the period ’76-80? Or did LP topple them? When did the RDB magic finally disappear? Is it with the arrival of the horrible Bappi? How LP managed to stay alive in the face of Bappi onslaught?
when recording the song of ‘maya’ lata made comment that rafi was unable to grasp the tune properly. the md salil was there but he took lata’s side. may since lata sang a bengali song of the same tune (i think earlier), she was more familiar with the tune. in a recording room the md is the boss. salil by taking lata’s side made the mistake. he should have acted like the boss and make the environment pleasant. he did not play his role that time. (after 7 years of rafi’s death, when kishore died, salil said that kishore could not take rafi’s place. that was surprising. salil used mukesh, kishore, manna more but eventually did realize that rafi was best).
ref post 743:
hans writes:
“is this also a coincidence that in every controversy relating to rafi there is a bengali involved, be it ‘maya’ of salil ‘poochho na kaise’ (sdb and manna dey) or the ‘teesri manzil’ of rdb. they havent left any stone unturned.”
From what I know, there are two people who definitely got into fights with rafi saab: lata and op. This is well documented in the print media, so they don’t need further elaboration. And, according to our old friend raju — whose credibility has sunk to an all-time low now — two other md’s had problems with rafi saab: c. ramchandra and khaiyyam. The latter would come as a surprise to most rafians, but I distinctly remember that raju b had noted that words were exchanged between the two in earthy punjabi.
It’s up to you to believe raju or not. But hans, do one thing: count the number of bengalis involved. In fact, as far as I know, not a single bengali was involved in a fight with rafi saab. anil b may have made some stupid remarks and salil may have stayed away from rafi, but none of them was involved in any kind of fight with him.
As for the bengalis and punjabis being the dominant players in the hindi film industry in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s, you are right. But they got along famously. Here are some memorable associations:
r. c. boral & saigal
raj kapoor & hrishikesh mukherjee
bimal ray & sunil dutt
o. p. nayyar & geeta dutt
s. mukherjee and o. p. nayyar
hrishikesh mukherjee and dharmendra
joy mukherji and rafi
biswajeet and rafi
dev anand & kishore
The list goes on. What is the need to create a division between the two communities? The hindi film world, for all its ills, has been one of the most secular and non-parochial institutions in India. It is only people like you who needlessly try to create mischief.
As far as the burmans are concerned, the father, mother and son never had any problems with rafi, whoever their favourite might have been. Even the bengali bahu didn’t have any problems. In fact, she and rafi saab partnered a beautiful innings for over 30 years, without taking a single break.
And, by the way, since when did nasir hussain become such a close pal of burman da? That is news to me. Who told you that sd forced nasir to take rd in teesri manzil? And what was the controversy with “poochho na kaise”? Please note that there are serious rafians who visit this site; if you want to spread your lies among gullible orkut babes, please go elsewhere.
I don’t agree that most of RDB’s music after SDB’s death was trash. The phase from 1975-1980 was a mature phase for Pancham. This is the time he showed his real class as a composer with albums such as HKKN, Mukti, Ghar, Aandhi, Mehbooba, Kinara, TBT, Shaan, Abdullah, Karm etc. There are many great songs in this period, including many sung by Rafi. Listen to “Mohabbat mein aji kya” from Phandebaaz (1978), composed by Pancham, its one of the best Lata-Rafi duets.
All this bias against Pancham doesn’t make sense. We have to remember that out of all the Bengali composers, Rafi sang the most songs for RDB (Pancham is among the top ten composers for Rafi in terms of quantity). True, had SDB done a similar number of films as RD, Rafi may have sung more for him, but facts are facts. We can say the same in the opposite case, had Rafi not passed away in 1980, he would have sang more for Pancham as well.
Apart from SDB whom Rafi had a great relationship with, many try and downplay the RD-Rafi angle when in fact here was a strong relationship too, which resulted in many songs. RD should not only be known as a Kishore composer, he should be known as a Rafi composer as well. Rafi even had a great relationship with Hemant, but the latter didn’t give him as many songs, as he sang most of his male songs. Salil’s favourite singer was Mukesh, Rafi came in here and there, yet people talk about the RD-Rafi relationship as if it wasn’t that great, when in fact its the other way around. Sure his favourite was Kishore but that doesn’t mean he hardly gave songs to Rafi, he gave so many to the King, that rank among the best of RD and Rafi. The career best achievements of Pancham (as Mr. XXX mentioned) are songs such as:
Pyar hai ik nishan qadmon ka – Mukti
Tumhein dekha hai maine – CKP (RD referred to this song as his “prized composition”)
Wadiyan mera daman – Abhilasha
Tumne mujhe dekha – TM
Churaliya hai tumne – YKB
Hai agar dushman – HKKN
Pal do pal ka saath hamara – TBT
Zamane ne mara jawan kaise kaise – BKS
Gulabi Aankhen – The Train
Ni Sultana Re – PKM
Rut hai milan ki – Mela
Maine poocha chand se – Abdullah
Chand mera dil – HKKN
Kitna pyara wada – Caravan
There are many more songs one can add to the list, just goes to show how fruitful the RD-Rafi combo was.
ref :754, Kishore kumar had got recoreded songs for Shabhash Daddy and
Badhti Ka Naam Dadhi under Rafi Saab,however the songs were not released .
Same was the fate of `Pyaar hai ek nishaan`from `Mukti`which everybody is enjoying is not in the film.
Dear Mr Anil(Post-724)
Happy that you have liked those songs.Here is my list of songs in the period 1976-1980.
Most of the songs are just above average songs(comparing to the 60s but still Rafi saab raised the
songs to an another level).
Solos Only.
barbade mohabbat ki saza(Laial amajnu-1976)
Har ek dil mein koi araman hain amanat(Amanat-1977)
Door rahkar na karo(Amanat-1977)
Banajara hoom mein(Aank ka tara-1977)
Tere dar pe juke mera sar(Niaz or namaz-1977)
Parda hain parda(Amar akbar antony-1977)
Tumhe voh beegi hui(Ooperwala jane-1977)
Dard mein doob gayi shaam(Mandir masjid-1977)
Chal musafir teri manzil(Ganga ki saugandh-1978)
Voh voh na rahe(Badalte rishte-1978)
Aag hain lagi hui(Swarg Narak-1978)
Saath hum tum chale yehi pe kai(Ladki jawan hogayi-1978)
Yaham kitne hain dil toote(Khoon kharaba-1980)
Taqdeer ke qalam se(Behram-1980)
Yeh anjana raahein(Rakh or chinkari-1980)
Dheere chal zara(Hum panch-1980)
Darde dil(Karz-1980)
Kali ghata chayi(Kalighata-1980)
Dheere chal zara(Hum panch-1980)
Phool ka shabab kya(Farz ki jung-1980)
ref post 747:
guru murthy ji, with reference to point no. 7, let me tell you that you are wrong on both counts. hemant kumar used rafi not only for do dil, but for at least 15 other films. And kishore kumar composed a song that he sang with manna dey and rafi. If rafi had not passed away prematurely, knowing kishore, there’s a good chance that he would have made rafi sing for him. I read a very interesting comment by someone who had attended a kishore kumar concert in los angeles after rafi passed away. He wrote that Kishore said that his other voice is gone. Let me assure you that every major Bengali male singer, from K. C. Dey to Srikanta Acharya adored Rafi.
Here’s a Hemant composition for Rafi in Jagriti, one of the most patriotic songs, written by Kavi Pradeep:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cGP0RTDbX4Y
Here are two rafi-lata duets in miss mary:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XSnMCJe6Mk4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QKy_OtSbNFo
There’s a film called “love in canada” that released in the 70s in which hemant had composed a song for rafi (can’t remember the lines now).
As for hans’s post, there are some elements of truth in it, but he has put so much spin on it that it has become more deadly than shane warne’s wrong ‘un. All I can say is that he is a very smart guy; he knows how to tweak the facts to suit his analysis. I’ll expose the flaws in his argument when I get more time. But let me focus on one point on which he is right; kishore did get very busy after ckng and started playing truant. s. d. burman was one of the strictest task masters in business and I’ve read that there was some friction between the two.
But here’s the interesting part. In my earlier post, I had referred to a “bangali chhokra”. I hope no one took offence because this was meant for the role that kishore da played in the film; here’s the bangali chhokra trying to woo a madrasi chhokri:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AGNsfX5mgik
Anyway, coming back to the story, ckng became a major hit. The one thing that kishore hated was paying income tax. So he came up with the brilliant idea to sink his money in a bengali film where he could make a loss and not pay taxes. As fate would have it, the film turned out to be a major hit. Here’s kishore playbacking for himself in lukochuri; just sit back and enjoy his antics:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jgjMoGiSueU
Do you know who the composer is? Hemant Kumar.
Hansji,
Your contention that SDB and KK had difference of opinion is bit puzzling, beacuse no where else, we have come across this point. Also pre 1969, only SDB used KK regularly as comapred to other MDs. You have also written that KK was used by SDB during this period only where KK was the hero. If SDB was not on good terms with KK, he could have rejected the movie.
Dear Hansji,
Refer your Post 749. You seem to have taken my letter as a confrontation with your opinion. In fact, my very statement is clear that the statastics given corroborate the views expressed by you. All the points I have written are not to confront you point by point but only my opinion / observation of SDB music. Also I have made very clear in point no. 4 that SDB deviated from his unwritten philosophy of choosing ‘best singer for the song’ in his later period (incidentally the period I am referring to is the same period what you have indicated). I also had this point of yours in mind that somehow, wherever possible SDB pushed KK but like his son, he did not compromise his career while choosing the Singer.
Sanjay Aroraji has a point in his Post No. 748. Most of RDB music was trash after SDB’s death (except for few movies like HKKN, ZKDH, etc.). It may be coincidnce and not much should be read into this fact.
Anyhow, on the whole a very good analysis and Mr Hans Saab, you deserve our congratulations for the same.
post 748 : sanjay ji: most of the composers loved rafi saaheb for quality and rafi gave his best to “any” song. some composers had exalted “egos” hence they could not stand the popularity of rafi – the undisputed melody king. i will not beat round the bush and also not play the bengali angle any time as its immaterial.
anil biswas truly liked talat mahmud and never could adjust his songs for rafi saaheb but his anils son rushed to rafis house the first time he got a recording opportunity to record with rafi saaheb
salil da, c. ramachandra had bloated egos and they suffered during their lifetimes. c.r. realised his mistakes rather late and also recorded songs in telugu in rafis voice months before the “music titan” passed away and wrote a fitting tribute for rafi.
c.r. was bitterly crying : our rafi has gone and will never come back.
please discount 60 % of what raju bharatan says as he loves to court controversey.
and, the short sighted ego filled composers “never liked rafi taking the credit for their songs” which is unthinkable and paid for their wrong beliefs in the long run. the “ego” effect affects many humans and it’s not typical of bengalees alone so please do not bring regional flavour in to a quality discussion . we are talking of mohd rafi the person who gave us first hand quality – in whatever he did.
binu nair…… mumbai…