Did R.D.Burman really preferred KK over Rafi?
This article is written by Mr.H.V.Guru Murthy.
A regular browser to web site mohdrafi.com, having gone through the letters of Rafi lovers would assume that R D Burman did not utilize Rafi properly, instead he preferred Kishore Kumar. Because of this reason, Rafi Fans are still upset with RDB even though he passed away a decade back.
Yes, it is true that RDB preferred KK over Rafi during early seventies. For that matter, which Music Director or Actor or Producer or Director will not have his preference. It was well known that Raj Kapoor always preferred Mukesh, Manoj Kumar preferred Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor, B.R.Chopra films had Mahendra, MD Ravi also had plenty of songs with Mahendra so also O.P after he broke with Rafi. Similarly OP always had either Asha or Geetha Dutt and never Lata. Salil also used all other Singers. Director Subba Rao insisted on Mukesh for SAATHI even though the hero was Rajendra Kumar and MD Naushad, two Rafi Fans. Even Kalyanji Anandji had many films with Mahendra Kapoor, Mukesh and KK even though Rafi was instrumental in their raise through JAB JAB PHOOL KHILE, AAMNE SAAMNE, etc. LP, by all means Rafi Bhakts, used KK regularly in the early seventies even for Rafi heroes like Jeetendra, Dharmendra, etc. SJ also switched over to KK in movies like MAIN SUNDAR HOON, DIL DAULAT DUNIYA, KAL AAJ AUR KAL, etc. Of course, the music standard came down a notch or two in that period. But, well, it is their prerogative to have whomsoever they wanted though I am sure in heart of heart, why even openly, they would have admitted the superiority of Rafi over all other Singers. Similarly, RDB also used KK for almost all his movies in the early seventies as perhaps he had some special chemistry with him.
However, let us not forget that RDB used Rafi extensively during late sixties as his main playback singer right from the first movie. He gave hit music with Rafi in TEESRI MANZIL, NAQLI NAWAAB, CARAVAN, PYAAR KA MAUSAM, THE TRAIN, ABHILASHA, ADHIKAR, RATON KA RAAJA, etc. Later during late seventies he returned to Rafi and gave hits like SHAAN, HUM KISISE KUM NAHIN, ABDULLAH, ZAMANE KO DIKHANA HAI, etc. In between, he had Rafi in CHANDI SONA qawali with Mannadey (Ek Shok Hasina Se), YADON KI BAARAT (Title song and who can forget the duet with Asha Chura Liya Hai Tumne), DIL KA BAADSHAH (this Raj Kumar starrer had all songs by Rafi), THE GREAT GAMBLER (Raftasa Mera Naam), SHEHZADA (Solo Tere Attaroo and duet with Lata Kaahe Ko Bulaya), etc.
If a person cannot appreciate the greatness of Rafi, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music. Of course, RDB was a good MD though not a great MD like Naushad, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar, SDB, etc. RD would have definitely known the great qualities of Rafi, the Singer. Just because he did not use Rafi extensively as one would expect, let us not degrade this MD who gave us some good songs in CHANDAN KA PALNA, PADOSAN, HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA, MERE JEEVAN SAATHI, AJNABEE, AMAR PREM, SANAM TERI KASAM, BHOOT BANGLA, BAHARON KE SAPNE (Rafi solo Zamane Ne Maare), PARICHAY, KINAARA, APNA DESH, ZAHREELA INSAAN, RAMPUR KA LAKSHAMAN (Pyaar Ka Samay with Lata, KK and Rafi), 1942 – A LOVE STORY, KATI PATANG to certain extent, etc. though he gave some very mediocre music in films like DEEWAR, SHOLAY, KITAAB, ZAKHMEE, RAFOO CHAKKAR, NAMKEEN, DHARAM KARAM and BIWI O BIWI (so un-RK film like), etc. so many forgettable movies as for as music was concerned.
The irony of RDB was either he gave good music or petered out to a very mediocre music in so many films. I read some where that Shashi Kapoor called RD as National Anthem Music Director. In those days, theatres used to play National Anthem at the end of the movie and the Hall doors used to be shut till the completion of the Anthem. As soon as the Anthem used to commence, our in-disciplined people used to rush to the Hall Door and wait for the door opening. Similarly, whenever RDB songs commenced in most of the movies, people used to rush to toilet.
Still, it is not fair that we use harsh and sometimes, un-parliamentary language against any body if they differ with our views. We cannot forget the contribution of all these MDs, Heroes, Singers, Directors, etc. in making the Indian Film Music so rich.
I like to ask why people speak that in film Aradhana Mohd rafi was replace by KK,If am not wrong the best two songs of the film was sang by mohd Rafi and Lata Ji.I don’t think that Aradhana was hit because of the the music but I feel that the Aradhana music was hit because the films was hit.
In film Abhimaan SD Burman used mohd Rafi only in one song with Lata ji but I think that was the best song of the film,Jest think if SD burman used Mohd Rafi voice in the place of KK?????as I think it was not possible because as film story that female singer is better singer than male singer so how SD burman can use mohd rafi voice,As film story the female singer was better than male singer because that I feel the film was hit
List SD Burman songs to Mohd Rafi
Track Name Film Name Year
Aa Badla Zamana Miss India 1957
Aaj Ka Din Bhi Phika Baat Ek Raat Ki 1962
Aaj Sheeshe Mein Bar Bar Benazir 1964
Aaja Panchi Akela Hai Nau Do Gyarah 1957
Aavo Yaaron Aavo Pyaaron Ek Ke Baad Ek 1960
Acha Jee Mein Hari Chalo Kala Pani 1958
Aise Tho Na Dekho Teen Deviyan 1965
Akela Hun Mein Is Duniya Mein Baat Ek Raat Ki 1962
Andhe Ne Bhi Sapna Dekha Sujata 1959
Apne Haathon Ko Pehechaan Apna Haath Jagnnath 1960
Apni Tho Har Aah Ik Toofaan Hai Kaala Bazaar 1960
Bagon Mein Bahar Hai Aradhana 1969
Batavo Kya Karoge Ek Ke Baad Ek 1960
Bijli Giri Kahan Se Picnic 1966
Chal Shuru Ho Jaa Sa Re Ga Ma Aa Chupke Chupke 1975
Chali Yeh Fauj Hamari Re Ek Ke Baad Ek 1960
Champakali Dekho Jhuki Ziddi (1964) 1964
Chupke Se Mile Pyaase Pyaase Manzil (1960) 1960
Deewana Mastana Huva Dil Bambai Ka Babu 1960
Dekhi Zamane Ki Yaari Kaagaz Ke Phool 1959
Dekhiye Dekhiya Gaur Se Phir Solva Saal 1958
Dekho Ji Mera Haal Solva Saal 1958
Dekho Re Dekho Ajuba Insaan Jaag Utha 1959
Dekho Rootana Karo Tere Ghar Ke Saamne 1963
Dil Ka Bhanwar Kare Pukaar Tere Ghar Ke Saamne 1963
Dil Mein Ik Jaan-e-tamanna Benazir 1964
Dil Pukare Jewel Thief 1967
Dil Tho Hai Diwana Manzil (1960) 1960
Din Dhal Jaaye Guide 1965
Duniyaa Men Mere Aaj Andheraa Hi Andheraa
Do Bhai (1947) 1947
Gagree Sukhi Laabe Pyaase Sitaron Se Aage 1958
Gam Is Kadar Bade Pyaasa 1957
Gun Guna Rahi Hai Aradhana 1969
Ham Aap Ki Aankhon Mein Pyaasa 1957
Ham Bekhudi Mein Kala Pani 1958
Ham Tho Hein Tumpar Bewaqoof 1960
Ham Tum Jise Kehta Kaagaz Ke Phool 1959
Hamen Na Niharo…Chand Sa Mukhda Insaan Jaag Utha 1959
Ho Bale Bale Zara Idhar Tho Saazish 1959
Ho Zara Ruk Jaa Sitaron Se Aage 1958
Jaanu Kya Mera Dil Ziddi (1964) 1964
Jinhe Naaz Hai Hind Par Pyaasa 1957
Jo Ijaazat Ho To Ek Baat Ek Raat Ki 1962
Junali Raat Ma Talaash 1969
Kahin Bekhayal Hokar Teen Deviyan 1965
Kali Ke Roop Mein Nau Do Gyarah 1957
Khoya Khoya Chand Kaala Bazaar 1960
Kya Se Kya Hogaya Bewafa Guide 1965
Le Gayi Ek Haseena Benazir 1964
Logon Mein Kaise Tumko Tipu Sultan 1959
Manzil Ki� Rahi O Rahi Devdas (1955) 1955
Mehebooba Teri Tasaveer Ishq Par Zor Nahin 1970
Mein Hoon Bhola Vyopari Miyan Biwi Razi 1960
Mein Shola Hun Mein Benazir 1964
Mera Man Tera Pyaasa Gambler 1971
Mujeh Preet Nagariya Jaana Hai Ek Nazar (1951) 1951
Nache Man Mora Magan Meri Surat Teri Aankhen 1963
Natkhat Taaron Hamen Insaan Jaag Utha 1959
Nigahon Ko Tere Jalwe� Aa Bhi Jaa Society 1955
O Chupne Wale Tere Chilman Ki Khair Ho Kala Pani 1958
Track Name Film Name Year
O Lag Gayi Akhiyan Tumse Mori Jiwan Jyothi 1953
O Mehenath Kar Insaan Jaag Utha Insaan Jaag Utha 1959
O Zindagi Tu Jhoom Le Kaise Kahoon 1964
Paani Hoto Doob Hi Jaate Miyan Biwi Razi 1960
Palkon Ke Peeche Se Kya Talaash 1969
Panghat Pe Dekho Aayi Naujawan 1951
Pawan Chale To Bambai Ka Babu 1960
Pyaar Ki Manzil Mast Ziddi (1964) 1964
Rehem Kabhi Tho Faramavo Society 1955
Rim Jhim Ke Tarane Kaala Bazaar 1960
Saathi Na Koi Manzil Bambai Ka Babu 1960
San San San Voh Chali Hawa Kaagaz Ke Phool 1959
Sar Jo Tera Chakraya Pyaasa 1957
Sau Baar Banakar Maalik Ne Ek Raat 1967
Sun Meri Sajani Re Miyan Biwi Razi 1960
Sunn Le Tu Dil Ki Tere Ghar Ke Saamne 1963
Taaqat Watan Ki Ham Prem Pujari 1970
Tang Aachuke Hein Pyaasa 1957
Tere Bin Soone Nain Hamaare Meri Surat Teri Aankhen 1963
Tere Ghar Ke Saamne Tere Ghar Ke Saamne 1963
Track Name Film Name Year
Tere Mere Sapne Guide 1965
Teri Bindiya Re Abhimaan 1973
Teri Dhoom Har Kahin Kaala Bazaar 1960
Teri Surat Se Nahin Ziddi (1964) 1964
Tu Kahan Yeh Bata Tere Ghar Ke Saamne 1963
Tum Mere Saath Ho Miyan Biwi Razi 1960
Tune Le Liya Hai Ab Miyan Biwi Razi 1960
Ulte Sidhe Dao Kaagaz Ke Phool 1959
Voh Kya Hai Anuraag 1972
Yeh Dil Deewana Hai Ishq Par Zor Nahin 1970
Yeh Dil Kashi Na Hogi� Sheeshe Ka Baat Ek Raat Ki 1962
Yeh Hanste Huve Phool Pyaasa 1957
Yeh Jhijhakne…Tumak Tumak Ek Ke Baad Ek 1960
Yeh Mehelon…Yeh Duniya Agar Mil Pyaasa 1957
Zara Jhoom Le Jawani Naujawan 1951
Dear Raaj Saab,
Please listen to the two songs for which link has been given in post no. 1183, one Talat singing Rafi’s ‘Chal Udjare Panchi’ and the other Kishore singing Rafi’s ‘Manre Tu Kahena’. My personal opinion is, Talat has sung well though at higher pitches, he is not able to match Rafi. Regarding Kishore’s, I would just say class is class, I just swithed off at half way point.
I am aslo a fan of Kishore and like hundreds of his songs, but if you listen to this particular ‘Chitralekha’ song, you will definitely appreciate the class of Rafi.
Regarding KK’s emergency problem, he was only banned from Vividhbharati, TV was hardly popular in those days except in Cities like Delhi and Mumbai. Please note that he was very much there in Radio Ceylon which was much more popular and considered a barometer for popularity.
RDB had to come back to Rafi in 1977 with films like Hum Kisise Kum Nahin, Shaan, Abdullah, Zamane Ko Dikhana Hai, etc. to regain his lost ground.
kuch kishore kumar lovers yahan par aakar kishore kumar saaheb ka “limitations” expose karne ka kasam le liya hai.
inke lovers hi yeh star singer ko expose karenge aur unke hasee udhayenge. jab baat nikhlee to duur duur tak jayenge.
come to your senses stupid kishore fans and take the exit door at the earliest.
binu nair…. mumbai…
jest listen when mohd Rafi enter to the song in the end
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynfgZ5uhCv0&feature=related
Mr A Raj,
Please stop writing nonsense on this site.
This site is for Rafi fans and we dont need your approval or certificate to decide who is the greatest. We all know who it is and who it was.
If you want to talk about KK, go to some site which would be dedicated to him.
We Rafians would not even think of belittling KK to uphold Rafi Saab. We dont need to do that.
You can hold on to your views, but it need not be aired in this site. This is absolute jealousy and envy.
Like myk said, your comments are not even worth reacting to. But, I took the pains to write this out, just to let you know that we Rafians and legions of his fans would not entertain any attempt from anyone to belittle Rafi Saab.
Please stop this nonsense. And please dont waste your time trying to reply to this message as you are not going to elicit any response from me.
Saifullah.
Dubai
MYK saab, Anil Cherian chettan , Manish bhai, Rafifanji and many Rafi lovers..
Here in Bangalore we have also additionally started a Rafi fans e group which is very popular.
We all are professinally well placed and have a single hobby viz crazy about Rafi Gharana..
If some of you are interested please email to bangaloreconsultancy@hotmail.com as early as possible.
I earnestly request you all to give your feedback to the raving reviews of 2 latest articles in this website…A wide range of fans for one song and Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaaye..
We all respect kishoreda but then some of the fans are immature,infidels and ignorant bachas. Let us forgive them and ignore them
yes. mr. raj . post 1187…depending on kishore kumar too much cost rd burman his job. he was sitting idle at home towards the end with no work. thank god sdb left earlier.
too much of everything is bad and people were “fed up” of too much of kishore kumar. that’s why the plunge n the carreer of his favourite composer.
analyse the playback singers used by l & P during the same era.
l.p went stronger and stronger ahead with rafi saaheb and after 80 with other singers as well.
kuch theek analyse karrooo yaaaaaar aur kishore kumar saaheb ka is tarah rafi saaheb ke saath compare kar ke, unka mazaak kabhi na udhaaoooo…
have some sense and dont expose your partial minds and theories in this great site.
binu nair
Post 1187 – Mr. A Raj ji,
Ek shayar ki nazar, dream girl – people listened to the song with their mouths wide open. Well, they opened the mouths seeing hemamalini, not kishore song please. This is a funny joke to quote that people opened their mouths for hearing kishore song. Emergency days, as I was given to understand, ban was on broadcasting songs in radio and TV (later) only. But in films kishore was active so this cannot be any reason for excuse.
Raaj Saab,
Surpised at your argment – “Had Rajesh Khanna, Burman, Kishore combination gave birth in 50, where would Rafi have been”. Similarly,
1. If Rafi were there in 1930s, where would have been Saigal, Pankaj Mallick, K.C.Dey, etc.
2. If Lata were there in 30s, where would Noojahan been?
3. If Rafi had sung all the songs of Aradhana and Kati Patang, as he was suppose to do, where would KK been?
4. If Rafi had not died in 1980, what would have happened to all the Singers including KK in the eighties?
Please spare us such comments. I personally think this forum is for appreciation of music in general and Rafi songs in particular. You would have noticed that most of the readers in this forum are fans of Hindi Film Muisc irrespective of the Singers. Let us not forget that all these Singers have given us wonderful moments in our life and all of them deserve our salutations.
Rafifan-ji, is there any way I can contact you outside of this forum, possibly by email ?. You can pass your email on to Binu Nair-ji and I will contact him.
Please let me know at the earliest. Thanks.
I am not even going to bother replying to A. Raj’s post 1187. It is ridculous to say that least, full of lies and myths, and no facts at all. We have also discussed similar issues on this forum many a times, so no need to discuss them again.
I urge others to ignore such posts, as they are a waste of time, and contain no meaning whatsoever. All these posts (along the same lines) only contain opinions of the ones writing them, and they in no way refelct the truth, reality, or facts etc.
Rafi, his talent, skills, rule over HFM, popularity, charm and so much more is beyond that of any other singer. It is only the jealousy of certain individuals (i.e KK fans) that they come to this site and write nonsense comments. The fact is Rafi is the greatest singer of all time, and one of the countless ways it is proven is by such KK fans coming here and writing trash.
Rafifan, nice to see you back my friend, was missing your posts.
Speaking of ‘heavy’ voice, what about this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtmqBROfRV8
And this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxfahb9Zg70
The ‘heavy’ voices are not to be exclusively linked with “Kishorean school” and soft voices to “Rafian school”.
I find it amazing that the ‘Rafi clone’ tag fits Mahendraji (of real heavy voice) as perfectly as Sonu (of feather light voice). Doesn’t that tell you something about ‘their master’s’ voice?
Mykji:
You are on the dot when you say that the KK fans (so-called ones, that is) have to contradict themselves and invent all sorts of theories to prove their points. It’s quite natural too, to prove that the moon is brighter than the sun takes some effort..right?
I like to argue with the more logical ones among them just for the fun of it, as Manishji says.
I’ll come up with my top 20 Rafi-LP songs when I’m a bit more free.
Gurumurthy sir:
Nice to see your listing. I think my listing would include most of yours.
Manishji:
Speaking of voices, I am with you on Kishorda’s voice. His voice had several shades and there are several aspects of his voice that I like, ‘majesty’ being one of them. However there are many other aspects which I don’t like about that voice and therefore I can’t listen to him days (or even hours) on end and the older I get, farther I move from the charms of that ‘booming’, ‘dada’ voice. One of the unique features of that voice is that it’s not too hard on one’s ears despite the obvious roughness (which became more pronounced as he got older), unlike his clones’ voices which are simply unbearable. And in my opinion the characteristics/texture of his voice was mostly decided by his age. He couldn’t quite deliver a smooth one after say, mid-’70s and whenever he tried, he had to resort to falsetto nor could he be really powerful before mid-’60s.
Rafisahab’s voice, in contrast, could be anything at any given point of his career. It was resounding in ‘dil me chupake pyar ka…’ (this song was probably recorded when Rafisahab was just about 30) and it was ‘soft-n-silky’ in ‘Simti hui ye gadiya…’ (recorded when he was may be 53-54). There were cetain periods, when we feel that the maestro did infact lose a bit of the voice modulation skill (and indeed the voice quality itself), ‘amar shakti…’ is one such instance.. Coming to ‘bane chahe dusman…’, while I agree with you that Rafisahab’s singing is top class, I don’t think that his voice was at its best. It wan’t at its best (in my opinion) in ‘mere dost kissa…’ either (though wonderfully sung).
Rafi lovers,
Kishore overtook rafi from aradhana. Even in late 70’s due to the ban on his songs – emergency days – was the main reason why rafi got chances. Otherwise the effect of kishore has not come down and his preference was more as was with rafi . Rafi fans, taking the above disadvantage which kishore had in mid 70’s go on quoting that rafi came up in mid 70’s and regained his glory. It is not correct. Had the situation would not have been as above – emergency days – rafi chances : a big question mark ? Had Rajesh Khanna, Burman, Kishore combination gave birth in 50, where would rafi have been. Clear – what is kishore, his talent and his popularity. By always quoting same songs pyasa, baiju bawra from the 50’s , it signifies only a repetition of rafi’s songs which can be limited only to the 50’s. In the 70’s kitna pyara wada has no appeal before dream girl song ek shayar ki nazar – for this song people listened with their mouths open. This shows kishore’s popularity and charm among the masses despite circumstances in mid 70’s as stated above. Final conclusion, in whatever way one may take from 69 it is kishore ruling bollywood.
Kishore lovers (with due respect to kishore)
As Shri MYK saab says, please spare us the comedy. Often variety of ranges which were never heard of with reference to kishore singing, are being quoted. Fair and square lata & rafi ji are the incomparable pair in h f m – to put it more clear with rafi saab in the lead.
Hello Mr. Kishorefan
Your argument seems interesting. Nice reading of your posts. I acknowledge your deep respects for rafi saab as well as kishore ji and my reciprocations for the same. Both were singing, shining & established stars of bollywood, of course, forefront being rafi saab which is a fact beyond dispute.
anil (not cherian saab, it is other one)
Electrifying taans – the word seems new specially with regard to kishore. Nothing can be a bigger joke than this. Kishore ji beautifully sung some straight songs in a straight way which were hits. Taans, aalaps, classical renderings etc. I do not think it is fair to drag kishore ji here. Kishore was not a specialist at all in these ranges. When it comes to these type of repertoires, the specialist names which crop up, (exception to linguistic barriers) are particularly of unique ghantasala, yesudas etc. from the south and rafi, manna dey etc.from bollywood and to bring kishore in this range simply becomes funny. In hindi entertainment songs and some straight songs such as kora kagaz tha ye man mera, mere sapno ki rani, yeh dil na hota bechara, ek shayar ki nazar, teri bheegi bheegi, paanch rupaiya baarah aana (chalti kanam gadi) etc. kishore ji gets a liking.
As my friend MYK saab says, rafi saab has sung in a variety of repertoires which is beyond the reach of kishore. By quoting few of interesting kishore numbers, it does not make much difference vis-a-vis status of the bollywood colossus – rafi.
Mr. Kishorefan,
As you said, to each his own. 🙂
I don’t find anything magestic about Kishore’s voice. For me, Rafi’s voice is not only majestic, but everything that a “perfect” voice has. I respect your views as well, and Thanks for your response too.
———————
Shri Kumar-ji
I fully agree with your views, a very well-written and interesting post by you, I enjoyed reading it.
Looking forward to more such write-ups from you in the future.
Talat Mahmood sings a song of Mohd Rafi or i can say Mohd Rafi sung Talat Mahmood song because it was sung by great Talat Mahmood sang before Mohd rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zslcMFPf1k&feature=related
same song in mohd Rafi voice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWzqLnETWpY
and KK sings Mohd Rafi song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd1_yG9k11w
same song in Mohd Rafi voice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvW7LbUidao
dear KK fans jest compare by yourself and honestly
KK song as I feel KK was not able to sing it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Ev-NIaNTk
Mohd Rafi sing for KK as I feel Kishore looks better with Mohd Rafi’s voice,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOUw8AnSBPo&feature=related
I like Sachin in cricket world, Mohd Rafi as singer, SJ as music director and Mr Bachchan as Actor offourse there are many who I like but I feel these people are the best
Dear fans.
1.who can give 10 RD or SD super hit films as music without using mohd Rafi voice?
2.who can give 10 Naushand or Madan mohan super hit films as music without using mohd Rafi voice?
3.who can give 10 LP or KA super hit films as music without using mohd Rafi voice?
4.who can give 10 Shammi kapoor or Rajesh khanna super hit films as music without using mohd Rafi voice?
Mohd Rafi is like sun for music world as sun for earth..
As lata ji said once it will be easiest question to her when some of ask her who is the best singer as she said that is Mohd rafi
I equest urgent attention of all to a news item published in mid-day in dec 2008.
Shahid rafi the son of late mohd rafi has been threatened and abused by and abused his respeced father late mohd rafi by icici bank recovery agent on phone for some EMIS not bein paid up n current recession.
The paper has sided up with hahid and confirmed that his garment unit at goregaon has fallen sick and shahid has paid al dues to workers as found out.
I think we should condemn this shabby treatment given to shahid and see in what way we can help him. The site should find a way to help the family of the late great singer mohd rafi if they are in genuine difficulty. in fact leading singers and bollywood should help!
since i was tocuhed by the news which i discovered while surfing the NET i feel we must appeal to bollywood to find a way out.
Mohd Rafi, shorekuar, lata, asha, Geeta, mukesh, mana de, K.L saigal, Vani jairam, shamshad begum are al the integral part of the rich cultural heritage of india very much like Tansen and Baijubawara.
It is sad if we can not be grateful to our cultural heritage.
About Kishore Kumar : In one recording of L & P, Kishore went so off line that the composers boycotted him for the recording. they said : this is not the style of laxmikant and pyarelal. this is stated by a senior saxophone player of the composers recently.
singer manna dey has often gone on record and said that the singer is no singer at all. please do not talk about him. i will not agree to what manna dey says as this is his personal opinion. kishore has given us some good songs and people enjoy that.
but to quote absurd and non-existent theories about kishore kumar by zealous fans will only be-little kishore himself. this has happened in various topics due to two important reasons.
one, the works of mohd rafi is incomparable. two, the fans of mohd rafi are too many. they are all well read and write only too well on music, melody and mohd rafi.
please allow kishore kumars soul to rest in peace. zealous fans please listen to his songs and never compare mohd rafi with any other singer. you will be exposed along with your favourite singer earlier than expected.
binu nair, mumbai.
Dear Anilji (of course I am referring to Cherian Saab),
Refer your post no. 1151, I am sorry for the delayed response. My favourite Rafi-Lata duets under LP are,
1. Woh Jab Yaad Aaye – Parasmani.
2. Rimzhim Ke – Anjana.
3. Apne Nainon Ko Samjhade – Maa Aur Mamta.
4. Rut Bekarar Hai – Maa Aur Mamta.
5. Chala Bhi Aa – Man Ki Aankhen.
6. Itna To Yaad Hai Muzhe – Mehboob Ki Mehendi.
7. Duniya Me Dilwale – Pyaasi Sham.
8. Muzhe Teri – Aap Aaye Bahar aaye.
9. Parbat Ke Us Paar – Sargam.
10. Ashaon Ke – Aasha.
I hope, most of the above songs must be your favourites also. But still I feel Rafi-Lata duets under Naushad, SDB, KA, SJ were much better.
Kishorefanji:
You’ve missed my point wrto Ghantasalaji V PBS. I also consider Ghantasalaji to be superior among the two and I was not speaking about ‘contribution’ or ‘influence’. I was simply speaking about the relative voices. If you think KK’s voice is ‘majestic’ but Rafisahab’s is not, it’s quite natural that (for you) PBS should sound more ‘majestic’.
Your definition of ‘majestic’ voice doesn’t make much sense to me, it’s no big deal anyway, we can always agree to disagree. And I have no idea what you mean by ‘sharpness’ of voice. If you think it’s the ‘majestic’ voice that hits you straight first time, then it’s the Rafi voice in my case (and many others I know). I was simply bowled over by the voice in ‘Kya hua…’ when I was barely 7 yrs (and couldn’t follow a word in Hindi). And KK’s voice never ‘mesmerised’ me, before I understood Hindi and after I did.
And if you think a perfect male voice should be ‘soft’ as well as ‘sharp’ (though I can’t really get what you mean, I presume you are speaking about ‘manliness’ of voice), there is no greater example than Rafisahab. That voice was exactly that- soft yet strong, heavy yet smooth. Yesudas sir’s voice also belongs to that category.
Here are a couple of songs, one by each master (the second one is not the best in terms of audio quality):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqjQt2YMBgk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCmsZbarARE
If these voices are only soft and not manly, I would like to hear some voices which are both (soft-n-‘sharp’).
Gan Sharma: I agree with you 100%. I know a lot of this is subjective and personal nad a matter of opinion and that no Kishore fan is going to make a Rafi fan switch camps (and vice versa). Nevertheless, we ignore these aspects for the sake of having a fun discussion. Frequently I learn a new song or a new insight that I was not aware of before. But I definitely understand what you are talking about.
kishorefan: i think i know what you are trying to say although my views are a little different. first of all, it is a mistake to use a few adjectives to describe the versatile voices of rafi or kishore. at first i was about to say that by “majestic” you mean kishore had a thundering, resounding voice. that is not enough adjectives to cover his many different songs. his voice is velvet smooth and fluid in “jeevan ke safar mein” (munimji) while “majestic” (as you put it) in say “inteha hogaya” (sharabi), while it is robust in “yeh dil na hota bechara”, and perhaps “soft” in “yeh jeevan hai”, and deliberately coarse (brilliantly done btw) in “meri beeghi beeghi si”.
You could do similarly with mohammed rafi and I think you’d need even more adjectives to describe his awesome voice. On your note of Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara. This is the first song I remember hearing as a child and what made me a Rafi (and Kishore) fan for life. Kishore sang this one very well but Rafi gave one of my favorite renditions of all time. Both voices were velvet smooth. Rafi’s voice sounded more fluid here. He expressed profound emotions behind individual words and it all seemed just right (not too much). Kishore did the same but to a lesser extent. Rafi’s judgment of taan & harkatein was genius in this song. This is also my favorite Rafi – Kishore duet. If by majestic you mean Kishore had a heavier voice – I agree but I don’t see that as a better thing in this duet although I may agree for Amar Shakti. Rafi’s voice was not either too heavy or too light but just perfect. For me, tonal quality is more important than the weight of a voice. Kishore had great tonal quality in this song but Rafi’s tonal quality was just as good. When they sing together you hear both equally. Rafi’s fluid voice and expression of emotions in this song makes me favor him by a longshot. Just my opinion. Happy Listening!
I request all not to pay attention to, and to ignore the humbug spread by intruders into this lovely site. Nothing they say will alter the truth, fact, reality etc. that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time.
Since the topic of L-P has come up, here is a LP-Rafi gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYm-TBDg_To&feature=related
Adding a bit to my previous post, “most” MD’s preferred Rafi to Kishore (and others), and that is one of the countless examples, that should tell one, that Rafi was far greater than Kishore (and anyone else), and the best singer of all time.
In terms of divine voices, I feel Rafi, Lata, Talat, Mukesh and Yesudas all have divine voices, with Rafi having the most divine voice of them all.
Here is another RD-Rafi gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIxMKSforuM
Anil,
Stop polluting this site with your false comments, myths and rumours. Everything you mention is the same and repetitive. Why don’t you go to the Kishore site and post all the nonsense. Why are you coming here and doing so ?. Is the Kishore site not good enough or does it lack lots of activity ?. Well in that case, that should tell you who the greatest singer is, and that definitely is not Kishore, it is the one and only Rafi. My replies again below:
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kishore was a much greater singer than rafi. he was reiscovered nd preferred by india’s best md sdb . Lata also said in the interviewon 80th birthday “kishore was the best amongst all †kishore,rafi,mukesh.â€.The interviews were public.and appeared in all newspapers. mana de lso gave no1 to khreputityof voice then to rafi and then to Hemant and finally counts himself. he sayskishore and hemanta have god gifted voices while his and rafis are trained voices. RDB ,RR, KA prefered kishoe pyarelal said rafii was the best but kishore comes a as a very closed second. ka liked all but eventually prefered kishore .
I think you have your facts wrong. All the above mentioned personalities have mentioned time and time again that Rafi is the greatest of all time. A few interviews here and there won’t change anything. KA never eventually preferred Kishore, in fact they did not have one clear favourite, all of Rafi, KK and Mukesh and even MK sang for them. SDB never preferred Kishore until the 70’s. If Kishore was re-discovered, that tells you a whole lot about his greatness, that he wasn’t really that great to be rediscovered. Your logic is as funny as your posts.
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“C ramchandra , opn had spotted potential inkishore. That sdb kishores ongs are more becuseof kishore’s moviesi is false. He used manna des playback to kishore in1 969 to all songs and deliberately to kill the politics of shrarat and ragini. Moreover rafi/mahendra/mukesh may have playbcked kishore but the best songsâ€rangloi sajjaye, nakharewali ,ajanabitum jane had always playback of kishore himself.”
No it is not false. Go back and check your facts before posting. KK has more songs under SDB than Rafi because of his own films. Minus those films and Rafi will have more songs. CR never spotted anything in Kishore, credit should only go to SDB. No one is disputing that Kishore sang his own best songs for himself, but the fact that Rafi sang for him shows Rafi’s greatness.
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when “yeh jeevan hai†was recoded by kishore lp a “rafi bhkta†said laximant felt “God is singinng.†This song and the voice qualityi s hundred times superior to “man re tu khe na dhir dre†which appears dry in Rafis voice.
I don’t think LP ever said that, and “Yeh jeevan hai” is nothing compared to “Man re tu kahe na”. The latter was voted as the best song ever by a group of judges a while back. If you have any knowledge of music, you will never make such a satement.
kishore competed with parvenn sultna and according to some listeners way he swept by sheer emotion and soft voice in “hume tumse pyar kitanaâ€. rdb had first recorded kishore version. The versions were planned different right from begining to suit two diferent situations. in the same movie rdb used rafi for the title song but not for this song. True kishore was initially reluctant to sing “mere naina sn bhado†and he first listened lata tape as he had no pracitce in singing classical songs.
This is all your opinion and nothing else, its not any fact or truth. PS’s version of the Kudrat song, and Lata’s version of “Mere naina sawan” were far better than the Kishore version.
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“but his version has more depth and the voice is really “pyasa†voice and this verson was prefeed by rdb. he replaced the childih initial alap( it looks very childish and distorts dito same in some other lata songs†and moreover the alap does ot suit male character and the situation) with a humming In Madhumati ( a ghost moi) the alap suited the ghost effect.”
The alaap in Lata’s song is not childish at all, it is one of the best aspects of the song. You have shown you hardly hve any knowledge in music, now you’re making such crazy claims that the alaap was childish. Just because Kishore could not do the alaap, does not mean it was childish. In fact the humming is a poor substitute for a song meant to be sung in a classical way just like Lata sang it. If there is anything childish in this song, it is the way Kishore has sang it, plain, dry and without any variation. The alaap would have suited the male character had it been put into effect but again Kishore could not do it, the same way he could not do many things.
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“kishore had at times used electrifying taans for example in “Aankhome apke spane sajaye hai†not taken by lata and also an electrifying taan in “jab bhi koi kangana bole†in shaukin(1987). his voice had retind the tenderness in “phoole ke ranse†in 1987 in “kaat nahi duet with alisha chinoy ifor “mr Indiaâ€.
Yeah and Bappi Lahiri had more classical knowledge than SN Tripathi right ?. Stop making such nonsense claims, Kishore did not display any taans in any way. I think you’re living in your dream world (as usual). LOL at “electrifying taans” and Kishore, you’re one funny dude. It seems your standard of music is quite low with such comments.
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“but rafis voice had not retained it in songs like “dardedil and maine pucha chandse†though rfi was excellent inn “pardahai parda “. RD did ot sideline rafi , he onsisiently used rafi in “nair husain moies which alays had est music and whenver rfis oice was needed.”
Rafi’s voice was awesome in every song including “Maine poocha chand se” and “Dard-e-dil”. Ofcourse RD did not sideline Rafi, and besides NH movies, he used him at many other times as well. Finally you said something sensible in that NH movies always had the best music. RD (and most MD’s) definitely needed Rafi many times as he was the only singer that could do justice to his (and their) songs.
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“He also used rafis oice on rajesh khanna in late seventies and ashed away the myth that kishore cme to prominence because of rajesh khanna.”
Actually Kishore did come into prominence because of Rajesh Khanna. Take RK out of the equation and Kishore would not have been half as popular.
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It should be rembered that when AB became superstar in late seventies rdb rarely usd rafi on AB if at ll and clearly showed that ishore was numero one. To see the magic spell of ishore listen the lively duet “ilagi ne di hawa†from dostana and compare with similar tunes of lp “hum bane tum bane†and “sheesha o ya dil ho.â€
“Mere dost kissa” was the best song of Dostana and not “Dillagi ne di hawa”. It doesn’t matter if RD hrdly used Rafi on AB in the late seventies, LP and others did, and this has nothing to do with showing that KK was number one. By that time (late seventies), KK was not number one anymore. RD did use Rafi for AB in the 70’s at choice times. The songs which Rafi sang for AB were beyond the skills of KK.
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the greatest classical singer of India wom ovt has bestowed “Bharatratna†notably “Bhmsen joshi†is a gr8 fan of kishorekumar in light music.
Even inn “madhubn me rahka nche re†noher classical singer had to be specially called or alaps.
Your point is ?. There are countless number of songs that Kishore could not even sing, why don’t you mention that ?. Who cares if BJ is a Kishore fan, there are many more countless number of musicians (and non-musicians) not to mention MD’s, singers, lyricists etc. and fans who are great fans of Rafi.
kishore na hemant were the only 2 male singers apart from lata to have divine quality in voice refer—kab tk andhere†from “bato batome†(1980), “aa chl ke tuzeâ€, “yeh jeevan hai†finally kishore genere an thee is also other kinds of ongs in which ishore excels loneliness songs†koi humdum, koi hota jisko apna 1 kishore
LOL Kishore and divine, you have to be kidding me ?. Rafi, Yesudas, Mukesh etc. have much more divine voices than Kishore and Hemant. Kishore’s voice was good (at times) but was definitely nothing even remotely close to being divine. Your statements are just opinions, they are not facts or reality or the truth.
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sad songs and philosophy “eg. “zindgi ka safarâ€, “mera jeevn kora kagaz†1 kishore the later song has a made a record or remaining on the top of chrts or binanca and that too for a sad song.
life songs—aanewala pal †dialogue duetsâ€cha to hum chalat haiâ€, “aap yaha aye ks liye†Motivational songs “jeevan se a hr jeeneleâ€, “ruk jana nahiâ€
kishore has sunga beutiful patriotic song “hum hai indosta keâ€, a beautiful classical song “payal ali dekh naâ€, beautiful ghazal †Dil aaj shyar haiâ€, “mere mehboob kayamat hogi†yes in the paronage of mds rafi scores over kishore but kishore was minly patroned by burmans( thegreates composers of india) and rajesh roshan and to some xtent by kand lp.”
First you say that Rafi’s MD range is better, then the Burmans are the greatest because they used Kishore more than others ?. First of all SDB has a million times better songs for Rafi than Kishore, so really all you’re left with is RDB who’s best also came through Rafi (along with Kishore).
The rest of your statement is all humbug. Kishore never excelled in ghazals, qawwali’s, patriotic songs, bhajans etc. and all your examples are weak and hold no ground. Even in sentimental songs, he was no match for Rafi or Mukesh or Talat. Kishore was hardy versatile, and attempts by you in making him look versatile are poor.
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but the sog “koi hota jisko apna†composed by salil choudhary uses all 3 octaves and gr8 changes of itch. salil was speechless after recoring the song and said he id not imagine anybody other than ishore for this.
Even gujar gaye din by salil chodhary was muh more difficult and e waited for kishore as he only could do 90% justice to song . it reuired 17 takes.
the salil choudhary kishore combo though a small but was very significant
Who cares what Salil did with Kishore, the songs you mentioned are not hard by any stretch of the imagination. Rafi has sung much more harder songs.
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“kishores voice even when high pitched did not lose its dpth contary to rafi.
though rafi’s high pitch range was more than ishore if u look kishore was a great master of very low pitch songs a teritory where very few singers dare.
in all the divine qualityof voice differentiates kishore nd lata from rafi and asha. the second pair is omplementary to first. there is some mixture of lata/asha ualities nin ishore and some other mixture in Rafi and ice vera. lata/asha’s mother “Mai†in interview says the voice is really hat of “ashâ€. asha has more songs than lata. asha’s songs were more in many binacas than lata, she had more firat versatilty but still due to divine quality “lata †is considered best. during rafi’s regime the real supreme was lata and manna de and mukesh eigned
In kishore’s era it was mostly ishore though others sang!”
LOL you are totally a gone case if you say that Lata, Manna and Mukesh were real supreme in Rafi’s reign. Yes they were supreme but nothing close to Rafi. Rafi’s voice never lost its depth in high pitches, in fact it was just as amazing in any range, and Kishore for that matter could never reach high pitches. Stop putting Kishore in the same league as Lata, Rafi and Asha, he does not belong there, he is not even considered as great as them. There is nothing that separates Kishore and Lata from Rafi and Asha, but there is definitely something that separates Rafi and Lata from Kishore and Asha and anyone else. Stop putting Kishore in Rafi’s place and embarrasing yourself. Rafi and Lata are regarded as the greatest singers of all time, Kishore is no where near.
In KK’s era, it never seemed like it was mostly Kishore. Not sure what era you witnessed but it definitely wasn’t the Kishore era. I think you are jealous of Rafi, you blood is boiling because Rafi was much better than KK and than anyone, and you are spilling out your frustrations here. Rafi’s reign was far greater than Kishore’s, and Rafi even regined in the 70’s (again greater), when Kishore was supposedly on top.
Everything you have said apart from the NH comment is hogwash, you have no credibility, so stop spreading false myths here and save yourself further embarrasment.
Why are you wasting your time in trying to make Kishore look more greater than he wa ?. If he was so great, then it would speak for himself and he wouldn’t need weird fans like you spreading lies, myths about him. But the fact that he was never that great is the reason why you and other KK fantastic have to spread such nonsense. You don’t see Rafi fans doing so, because we don’t have to, we know Rafi is the greatest of all time. It’s only fans of other singers (particularly KK fans) who do that.
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Cherian-ji,
This other Anil reminds me of those KK fans who feel sorry for their idol, hence the crazy posts. Their statements have so many contradictions, myths, lies etc. and they try and turn their opinions into facts which is hilarious. What is your take on all of the above ?.
Hi all,
Isn’t it funny that we have 117 pages of comments on this subject, but if you had asked either Kishor Kumar or Rafi saab, they’d have declined to comment on this issue. In fact, if forced, they’d probably have said that the other was the better singer!
Humility was the chief hallmark of Rafi saab, (he probably prized humanity and good feeling more than his singing ability) and if we are his true shargirds, then we should probably find greatness in all good musicians. No one can deny that Kishor Kumar, Manna Dey, Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor gave us some wonderful songs.
I am personally a Rafi fan, but I cannot but bow in reverence to these great singers. It is entirely possible that RDB chose KK because of personal chemistry and close association: I doubt that he thought about who was “objectively” better.
I cannot believe that we can be true Rafi fans if we didn’t have the generosity of spirit that he had. That spirit must include repsect for other great musicians!!
Cheers!
Gan
Sir anil ,
KK was good singer I agree but can’t be compare with Mohd Rafi because I think as human we can’t think that there can be better voice than Mohd rafi voice…who is Anil Biswas?If am not wrong Anil Biswas Ji liked Talat Ji voice and Talat ji himself said that mohd Rafi is the best..If am not wrong Anil Biswas used mohd rafi voice until 1958,mohd Rafi sang for Anil Biswas around 12 songs but KK sany only 6 and last song was I think in 1952..Naushand Ali used KK only for one song but SD Burman or RD Burman they got there best songs with Mohd Rafi..KK sang only one song for actor Shammi Kapoor but Mohd Rafi gave more than 10 songs super hit to Rajesh Khanna…
Please read what said by Madan Mohan ,Naushand,LP,SJ,SD Burman,OPN and many more…………..
I don’t think that India will going to have singer like Mohd rafi and player like sachin in next 100 years
Anil cherian – 1152
I had missed one point for your question. You were asking what is majestic. It means kingly, means whosoever comes into contact with that automatically develops respect for that . Majestic voice accordingly means, whenever any body hears a voice which is majestic, even for the first time – he stands mesmerised. Language factor is not a consideration here. Only few have such voices. Artists with such voices, if they have extra versatile talent, naturally have edge. Moresoever, perfect male majestic voices are rare. In this context, I referred to ghantasala. Though I have little knowledge about him, I felt mesmerised on hearing him for the first time. As you refer, he does not shout at all or is not loud voice, but the high pitches are distinctly revealed with perfection -that is it and of course it is only one of the points for his voice. It comes like that. Both sharpness as well as softness factors are present there – a rarest combination indeed. As I said, voice of P b srinivas, a good singer, again it relates to the soft type and does not give a majestic outlook.
Most male singers rafi, mukesh, yesudas, saigal, etc. have soft voices – this is one degree lesser than the term pure male majestic voice, which I said should consist of both sharpness and softness -a special voice indeed. And only in this soft voice category – rafi’s voice had greater melody and hence became attractive and popular among other soft voices.
The perfect male majestic voice terminology type even applies to kishore kumar as well, as he had that quality type of voice. Since he however lacked in that highest degree of softness which rafi had, he is being downgraded when compared to rafi. But when majestic factor of sharpness issue comes, I personally feel kishore overtakes rafi. You will notice in salamat rahe dosta na hamara or ek shayar ki nazar dream girl etc. the songs pour out a majestic outlook. Anyhow, as I had pointed earlier, My deep respects are always for rafi as well as kishore.
Hai to all music lovers,
I written one point in true voice one year ago. I again repeating same point. Thik hai rafi accha gaya, ghantasala accha gaya, kk accha gaya or paise khub kamaye, aap sabko kya mila. Woh sab singers apni jindagi guzarne ke liye kuch naukri choon li thi – woh playback singing. Free kisi ne to nahi gaya na. Unke gaane hear karne se kya poor aadmi rich ban jayega or kuch miracle ho jayega. Kuch nahi. producers ne bhi paise kamaya en singers ko apne film me chance de kar. Aam admi ka kuch bhi nahi sudhrega. Khali gaane sunthe baithen to pate (stomach) puja kaisi hogi. Samajhdhar log time nahi waste karte, specially un par jo log bahut saal pehle gujar gaye the or shayad woh log bhi (singers) agle janam leke his forum me aapki tarah hi likh bhi rahe honge. Phir bhi kuch phayada nahin hoga. Kyon doston.
Anil cherian –
I agree with your views. I had already highlighted about great rafi in my previous messages. But one of your question is off the track in one of your posts. Regarding southern music, As I am well aware of the trends, I wish to update one point for your information. It is the only p b srinivas , singer who often says (even today) that the most majestic and impregnable voice is of ghantasala. Pbs is very close to ghantasala, as you know, certainly than you and me.
Post 1160.. Your views are like Jaundiced eye…..No wonder the analysis isinsipid and immature…’
My personal view is that both Rafi sahab and Kishore da were great artists and mutually respected each other..
You have not learnt from Kishore da who himself has written to the FILMFARE that he is the greatest fan of Saigal and Rafi saab…
Lataji has told that she is fortunate to sing the maximum songs with legend Rafi sahaab and like Saigal sab’s era another great Rafi saab’s era has gone,,
You are saying that Sonu Nigaam is a kk clone can you tell me when the world recognises him as a Rafi clone n Bakt…
Anil da was fond of Talat Mehmood and he himself was drowned in the change of musical era in the late 50s n 60s and was unfortunately misquoted.. But Rafi sahab gave great welcome to his son and sung for this young MD like a true Saint. Even today his hon. music loving daughter conducts stage show Rafi nite in Delhi one of them on 4th Aprio09…
So if you appreciate Rafi sahabs melodies you are welcome to comment on them otherwise do not waste time of Rafi Bakts in this forum by comparisons…
Buddy you live only once make them the best instead of dramatising n hurting others n ur feelings///
Anil cherian,
I have respect for all singers, as they are all talented artists on their own. But for your query addressed with reference to comparison I had to reply in that way. My deep respects to Shri p b srinivas as well for his talent.
Mr. MYK
You hold on to your views and I hold on to my views. I respect your views about rafi saab as well. In fact, I have My deep respects for both rafi and kishore as I consider both of them as great singers of hfm. Thanks for the response.
Anil cherian, (Specifically addressed to you for your question on southern singers)
Irrelevant question you have asked, but since you have asked I am replying. P B Srinivas, I have heard him from the south. But, I request you to read my earlier message again. As I heard some few songs of ghantasala, I personally rate his voice & talent as well, far far above p b srinivas (who can be taken at best on par with mukesh in hindi or even close to yesudas in malayalam) And perhaps, I do not think , as I understand from other forum, p b srinivas had exercised similar influence/contribution which ghantasala had exercised. Moreover, I understand as well that ghantasala is a padmashri awardee and rated as the best playback singer awardee in every year for his entire career in telugu . You have to agree that at least in those days (unlike today) – padmashri awardees were won only by accomplished talents – such as rafi, lata, or ghantasala etc. My reservations on p b srinivas on this issue – For your comments & Thanks for the response.
A Raj ji, – 1145
True, hindi playback singing has not stopped after 1980. Nothing will stop in this world on happening on any event. The world will go on. But, the tremendous influence of rafi in hfm which I referred to in my previous post has certainly stopped. No other singer in hfm had been able to give such influence till today. How many kumar sanu songs people hear today. Compare with numerous rafi songs heard even still today by many people across the world. See the influence factor of rafi ji – that has not repeated again.
Dear Music Lovers,
Each artist has his own speciality and contribution in his own area. Unnecessary comparison & irrelevant comments on artists by so called false claiming knowledgeable people certainly is not respectable and below dignity. I agree with sri myk ji, rafi ji’s influence has been tremendous. As a music lover and specially from andhra, I had been fortunate to hear all of the southern singers as well along with pretty large number of songs of rafi saab and kishore besides other bollywood singers. It has to be noted that in olden days, there were real and original gifted talents and that enabled the artist to exercise monopoly for a longer period. And in this category, it is certain that in hindi, mohd. rafi ji was the only singer, which can be said with certainty , who exercised influence on hfm for more than 30 years. Such long influence has not been exercised by any other singer. In my experience, barring telugu (Wherein ghantasala ruled similar to rafi & exercised monoply for a period of 30 years and subsequently spb for 15 plus years that too after nearly long gap of demise of ghantasala), no other singer in any industry has exercised such tremendous influence. Even Yesudas contribution was for some 20 years or so. Kishore kumar, we know too only was short period. So, as Shri MYK says, rafi ji’s contribution is unmatched. kishore or any other bollywood singer , i do not think personally, that can be compared with this playback giant. In hindi the tremendous influence starts with rafi and ends with rafi ( as was ghantasala in telugu)
Sri MYK ji – only between both of us.
But MYK ji, i can say with pride, as being a telugu man, that in telugu industry 2 singers had been capable of exercising monopoly, one ghantasala for a longer period and spb though for a shorter period. But I do not think in any other language 2 singers have been able to exercise monopoly continuously. In hindi it was only one and only rafi who had exercised such influence, in tamil it was only sounderrajan ( 15-20 years or so), In malayalam, it was yesudas (of course along with jayachandran), In bengali too, I do not remember anybody exercising such tremendous influence.
Cherian-ji,
LP-Rafi was a fantastic combination, one of the best ever in the history of HFM. The other Anil on this forum holds a different view, but it doesn’t matter what he or anyone says, because the fact, the truth, and the reality is that LP-Rafi was a fantastic extraordinary combo and a gift to HFM.
It’s hard for me to list my Top 20 of LP-Rafi, as they have many outstanding songs together. But for today, here are 20 of my favourite solo’s and duets from their association:
Janewalon ka gham – Kali Ghata
Nazar ka yeh paigham – Barkha Bahar (with Lata)
Aisa na ho ke – Aakhri Dao
Woh woh na rahe – Badalte Rishte
Ab jeene ka mausam – Dillagi (with Asha)
Rimjhim ke geet saawan – Anjana (with Lata)
Dil kahe ruk ja – Man Ki Aankhen
Rut beqarar hai – Maa Aur Mamta (with Lata)
Koi phool na khilta – Paise Ki Gudiya
Hui shaam unka – Mere Humdum Mere Dost
Bhula hua fasana – Sau Saal Baad
Saari khushiyan hai – Suhana Safar
Yeh dil tum bin – Izzat (with Lata)
Resham ki dori – Sajan (with Lata)
Mausam suhane aa gaye – Judaai (with Asha)
Mere dost kissa – Dostana
Kahaniyan sunati hai – Rajput
Mast baharon ka main aashiq – Farz
Bahosh-o-hawas main deewana – Night In London
Jab jab bahar aaye – Taqdeer
Adding more to my previous post, who cares if Anil Biswas did not like Rafi, who was Anil Biswas anyways ?. Many millions and a countless number of people love, respect and admire Rafi-saab, I don’t think one can say that about Anil Biswas. Rafi is like the sun, whereas Anil Biswas wouldn’t even find a place in the galaxy. Yet, these KK fans and outsiders keep bringing his name up every now and then. I can list many people that did not like Kishore, but the topic about “liking someone” for any singer is besides the point. Then again, KK fans do bring up nonsense points, so I am not surprised.
As I said, many millions and a countless number of people love, respect and admire etc. Rafi-saab and I think Rafi-saab was probably the most loved in the industry (and outside the industry) for his amazing talent and great human nature.
Anil:
My replies below:
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“I do not say kk was best with lp. kk was best under his own compositionand also with sd, rd, sj, rr,khemchand prakash. i just found lp mediocre. i feel though rafi sang a lot with lp his siongs with sj, naushad, sdb, madanmohan, rdb, opn were all better. rafi lp was a dull como and in fact a main reason for the eclipse of rafi in 70s.”
LP-Rafi a dull combo ?. I respect your opinion, but LP-Rafi was hardly dull, they were one of the greatest combo’s ever. In fact, LP’s work with Rafi in the 60’s alone (leave aside 70’s and 80’s) would eclipse that of their contemporaries (i.e RD, KA etc.) works with any other singers. The only combo’s to come close are Rafi’s combo’s with RD and KA and other LP contemporaries, looking at it from that view. Ofcourse Rafi’s songs with those MD’s you mentioned (and others) were excellent, and same is the case with LP. There was no eclipse of Rafi in the 70’s, and LP did not have anything to do with his downfall because there was absolutely no downfall, and LP also did not contribute to anything even remotely close to bad compositions with Rafi.
A lot of LP-KK songs are average and dull, there are choice exceptions though.
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“hAD LP NOT USED RAFI THEN MUCH SOONER WITH RDB, KA, COMOSITIONS RAFI WOYULD HAVE BEEN A LAED SINGR IN 70S.”
Rafi was a lead singer in the 70’s, have you not noticed ?. LP-Rafi was always a fantastic combination.
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I have deleted other parts o your post as they are not relevant to our discussion.
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“it was agr8 crdit to kishore that this did not happen to kishore. god wanted him to be heard. mds barely did justice to him aply proved by the nmerous melodies later composed y nadim shravan and annu malik with kishore clone sonu nigam.
Kishore was lucky that he got a chance to sing and become popular, and that was good for him. Sonu Nigam is not a Kishore clone, he is a Rafi clone, I think you are referring to Kumar Sanu. The melodies composed by N-S and Anu Malik for KS do not hold a candle to the melodies composed by RD for Kishore. How did MD’s not do justice to Kishore’s talent ?. What was so extraordinary about KK’s talent that MD’s had to do justice to it ?. I think Kishore got more than he should have received, and MD’s like RD overdid it with him, and made KK sing songs that were not suited for him, and gave him songs he should not have sang. Other MD’s who did not have time for Kishore were absolutely correct in their judgement.
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“surely nadim shravan arrived on scemce earlier they would have moulded kishore. anil biswas did not like rafi but he said that sdb and op nayyar moulded his voice.”
Nadeem-Shravan would have moulded Kishore ?. I think the Burmans should get credit for moulding Kishore’s voice. Even if N-S arrived on the scene earlier, I don’t think they would have done anything different with KK’s voice.
Rafi’s voice was god’s gift to mankind. It was perfect gold and could suit the needs of any situation. It’s the MD’s very great fortune that they got a chance to work with such a mega-talent and phenomenon in Rafi.
What does Anil Biswas not liking Rafi have to do with anything ?. A lot of MD’s did not like Kishore, but that’s besides the point. The Burmans and others were not too fond of Mukesh. You can apply this example to every singer. Anil Biswas drowned because he did not take a liking to Rafi. Most MD’s loved Rafi, and there were only very little exceptions as is the case with every singer. In fact, Rafi was probably the most loved by everyone in the industry and outside of the industry because of his mega-talent and great human nature.
kishore was a much greater singer than rafi. he was reiscovered nd preferred by india’s best md sdb . Lata also said in the interviewon 80th birthday “kishore was the best amongst all ” kishore,rafi,mukesh.”.The interviews were public.and appeared in all newspapers. mana de lso gave no1 to khreputityof voice then to rafi and then to Hemant and finally counts himself. he sayskishore and hemanta have god gifted voices while his and rafis are trained voices. RDB ,RR, KA prefered kishoe pyarelal said rafii was the best but kishore comes a as a very closed second. ka liked all but eventually prefered kishore . C ramchandra , opn had spotted potential inkishore. That sdb kishores ongs are more becuseof kishore’s moviesi is false. He used manna des playback to kishore in1 969 to all songs and deliberately to kill the politics of shrarat and ragini. Moreover rafi/mahendra/mukesh may have playbcked kishore but the best songs”rangloi sajjaye, nakharewali ,ajanabitum jane had always playback of kishore himself.
when “yeh jeevan hai” was recoded by kishore lp a “rafi bhkta” said laximant felt “God is singinng.” This song and the voice qualityi s hundred times superior to “man re tu khe na dhir dre” which appears dry in Rafis voice. kishore competed with parvenn sultna and according to some listeners way he swept by sheer emotion and soft voice in “hume tumse pyar kitana”. rdb had first recorded kishore version. The versions were planned different right from begining to suit two diferent situations. in the same movie rdb used rafi for the title song but not for this song. True kishore was initially reluctant to sing “mere naina sn bhado” and he first listened lata tape as he had no pracitce in singing classical songs.
but his version has more depth and the voice is really “pyasa” voice and this verson was prefeed by rdb. he replaced the childih initial alap( it looks very childish and distorts dito same in some other lata songs” and moreover the alap does ot suit male character and the situation) with a humming In Madhumati ( a ghost moi) the alap suited the ghost effect. kishore had at times used electrifying taans for example in “Aankhome apke spane sajaye hai” not taken by lata and also an electrifying taan in “jab bhi koi kangana bole” in shaukin(1987). his voice had retind the tenderness in “phoole ke ranse” in 1987 in “kaat nahi duet with alisha chinoy ifor “mr India”. but rafis voice had not retained it in songs like “dardedil and maine pucha chandse” though rfi was excellent inn “pardahai parda “. RD did ot sideline rafi , he onsisiently used rafi in “nair husain moies which alays had est music and whenver rfis oice was needed.
He also used rafis oice on rajesh khanna in late seventies and ashed away the myth that kishore cme to prominence because of rajesh khanna. It should be rembered that when AB became superstar in late seventies rdb rarely usd rafi on AB if at ll and clearly showed that ishore was numero one. To see the magic spell of ishore listen the lively duet “ilagi ne di hawa” from dostana and compare with similar tunes of lp “hum bane tum bane” and “sheesha o ya dil ho.”
the greatest classical singer of India wom ovt has bestowed “Bharatratna” notably “Bhmsen joshi” is a gr8 fan of kishorekumar in light music.
Even inn “madhubn me rahka nche re” noher classical singer had to be specially called or alaps.
kishore na hemant were the only 2 male singers apart from lata to have divine quality in voice refer””kab tk andhere” from “bato batome” (1980), “aa chl ke tuze”, “yeh jeevan hai”
finally kishore genere an thee is also other kinds of ongs in which ishore excels
loneliness songs” koi humdum, koi hota jisko apna 1 kishore
sad songs and philosophy “eg. “zindgi ka safar”, “mera jeevn kora kagaz” 1 kishore the later song has a made a record or remaining on the top of chrts or binanca and that too for a sad song.
life songs””aanewala pal ”
dialogue duets”cha to hum chalat hai”, “aap yaha aye ks liye”
Motivational songs “jeevan se a hr jeenele”, “ruk jana nahi”
kishore has sunga beutiful patriotic song “hum hai indosta ke”, a beautiful classical song “payal ali dekh na”, beautiful ghazal ” Dil aaj shyar hai”, “mere mehboob kayamat hogi”
yes in the paronage of mds rafi scores over kishore but kishore was minly patroned by burmans( thegreates composers of india) and rajesh roshan and to some xtent by kand lp.
but the sog “koi hota jisko apna” composed by salil choudhary uses all 3 octaves and gr8 changes of itch. salil was speechless after recoring the song and said he id not imagine anybody other than ishore for this.
Even gujar gaye din by salil chodhary was muh more difficult and e waited for kishore as he only could do 90% justice to song . it reuired 17 takes.
the salil choudhary kishore combo though a small but was very significant
kishores voice even when high pitched did not lose its dpth contary to rafi.
though rafi’s high pitch range was more than ishore if u look kishore was a great master of very low pitch songs a teritory where very few singers dare.
in all the divine qualityof voice differentiates kishore nd lata from rafi and asha. the second pair is omplementary to first.
there is some mixture of lata/asha ualities nin ishore and some other mixture in Rafi and ice vera.
lata/asha’s mother “Mai” in interview says the voice is really hat of “ash”. asha has more songs than lata. asha’s songs were more in many binacas than lata, she had more firat versatilty but still due to divine quality “lata ” is considered best.
during rafi’s regime the real supreme was lata and manna de and mukesh eigned
In kishore’s era it was mostly ishore though others sang!
Dear Mr A.raj,
ref your post 1145. i think you dont have human emotions. when rafi sahab passed away on 31st july 1980 its but natural that all the pujaris of rafi sahab thought so. its because rafi sahab was in the heart & soul of his lovers. cant we feel desperate & lonely when we loose some one in our family who is very close, affectionate, loving. we feel it because we attach our selves to that person so much that the departure brings a sudden void. similarly rafi sahab was a family friend of his followers as far as his humanity factor is concerned. people who met him personally speak volumes about his softness, kindness, charity, compassion, simplicity. they say finally rafi sahab never hurt anybody. how great ! ! !
sir i tell you i heard the news of the departure of rafi sahab i was working in nagaland. a friend of me phoned me from kolkata & told me at 8 pm on that fateful day. i was shocked. i could not take my dinner, could not sleep, the next day in the office i could not concentrate & came back to my accomodation taking half day leave. i had severe head ache.
so what mr unknow writes is with true human emotions. of course the world of play back singing did never stop rather cant stop due to any ones departure. we are all mortal so also rafi sahab. its the feeling & love which errupts this way when we loose a precious thing.
sir, did world stop after satya yuga,treta yuga, dwapara yuga ? no never.
only the way, ethics keep on changing with respect to time.
now a days singers are changing frequently like playing cards, but those days it was rafi sahab only who was constant from 1946 till 1980. he was there for the people becuase there was no substitute for him. from gulbaloch to aas paas it was long long journey my friend. therefore its natural that he was inseparable in the world of playback singing.
i do not say kk was best with lp. kk was best under his own compositionand also with sd, rd, sj, rr,khemchand prakash.
i just found lp mediocre. i feel though rafi sang a lot with lp his siongs with sj, naushad, sdb, madanmohan, rdb, opn were all better. rafi lp was a dull como and in fact a main reason for the eclipse of rafi in 70s. hAD LP NOT USED RAFI THEN MUCH SOONER WITH RDB, KA, COMOSITIONS RAFI WOYULD HAVE BEEN A LAED SINGR IN 70S.
SANDEEP NADKARNIS REMARKS ARE NOT ABOUT KISHORES SINGING BUT ABOUT HIS NAKHARAS AND ARE IN BAD Taste. lp said kishore never made nakharas with us. May be kishore made nakharas in his own camp rdb, ka, rr, the industry needs either politics or nakharas along with talent . since kishore ws not adept to politics he used nakharas.
Did u know lata made many nlars and dictated terms to mds.
did u know of a md Vasant desai and his brilliant song ” bole re papihara” sung brilliantly by Vni jairam much better han lta in high notes. o u know that this song was suddenly lost its popularity in binaca after 17 turns( 18th turn it would have ben surtaj)/ so much for politics. surely Vani jiram deserd alead positon in singing. suely hemanta desrved more uring rafi regime naushad etc put him to oblivion. Shamshad begum who ad a different voice something of kishore genere w3as put to oblivion.
it was agr8 crdit to kishore that this did not happen to kishore. god wanted him to be heard. mds barely did justice to him aply proved by the nmerous melodies later composed y nadim shravan and annu malik with kishore clone sonu nigam. surely nadim shravan arrived on scemce earlier they would have moulded kishore.
anil biswas did not like rafi but he said that sdb and op nayyar moulded his voice.
Respected Friends, Pls visit http://www.youtube.com/universe999 i have paid my HUMBLE Tribute to RAFI SAHEB. thanks and regards to all rafi saab FANS. i am also his DIE HARD FAN Mukesh khanna
The truth will always be the truth, and the truth is that Rafi-saab is the greatest of all time regardless of what anyone says. It’s already a proven fact, and no one can change it.
How about this for another RD-Rafi gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zLc40cbg8E
This is from 1978, a great philosophical number.
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A Raj,
Whether you or anyone else wants to believe/accept it or not, the fact is there was a tremendous emptiness and void in hfm after 1980. That emptiness and void is felt up to today and will continue to be felt in the future, and as long as music is alive. Rafi’s death was the biggest blow to hfm. Look at what has happened to the music industry after 1980, the quality in general is no where near pre-1980.
Raj Bhai,
I agree with you, even after passing of each great Singer, Hindi film music continued. But how many songs of eighties and nineties we remember, but the songs of earlier period especially fiftees and sixties are still fresh in our memory. Not only that it is astonishing that even youngsters born after 1980, like those old songs.
I’ve noticed in general about Rafi-KK discussions that Rafi fans discuss things with logic, facts, and depth etc., whereas KK fans discuss things with myth, lies, and no depth at all etc.
Anyways, here is another RD-Rafi gem, the best qawwali of the 80’s (imo):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZYnTnXOsdE
Kishorefan,
My replies below:
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“Rafi had a melodious voice and in a way it was soft melody. His voice did not possess that majestic melody which encompasses majestic sharpness combined with softness which is more appealing actually and which actually is termed as divine in my view.”
Ofcourse Rafi’s voice possessed that magestic melody. I’m not sure what songs you have heard but Rafi’s voice was definitely divine. It may not be to you, but it won’t change the fact. Rafi’s voice was the best in every respect, and from all angles which is why Yesudas exclaimed that “God has been partial to Rafi” and gave him such a beautiful voice. Rafi had the most perfect voice ever.
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“And many compositions during 50’s and 60’s were composed to suit mainly rafi’s voice and to suit that soft touches and accordingly many of the songs became hits as they were composed suiting his voice. Many and large number of songs of rafi are slow type songs, barrring few of different other genres which many rafi fans quote while comparison (such only few numbers).”
Many compositions in the 50’s and 60’s had a level of difficulty that only a Rafi could do justice to. Even in the 70’s, if you look at many Rafi songs, they are much more diffcult than any Kishore song or songs by others (for others this also relates back to the 50’s and 60’s). The songs in the 70’s in general did not have a level of diffculty that the songs of the 50’s and 60’s had in general, but many Rafi songs in the 70’s were difficult and only he could do justice to them.
Your comment that Rafi songs were mostly slow type shows your lack of knowledge of Rafi’s songs. Rafi sang a countless number of fast songs throughout his career. Have you not heard the songs composed by SJ, OPN, RDB, LP etc. ?. I don’t think you have which is why such a bogus statement.
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“If you do not agree with me, and continue saying rafi is everything in music or whatever it may be, then there is no point for discussion at all.”
Well ofcourse I don’t agree with you because what I have said is the truth. Rafi is the pinnacle of music when it comes to male singers, any other singer including KK is no where near. This view is shared by a countless number of people around the world including most music personalities because it is the truth. I think if you don’t agree there is no point for any discussion.
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“You may keep your views with you only, and certainly I personally think that all people have no necessity to agree with you. No disrespect to your views, but I have written my personal views.”
Not everyone has to agree with me, and I never said everyone should. So what exactly is your point may I ask ?.
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“On the other hand, kishore had that majestic display of voice though he lacked that soft touch to the extent which rafi had. The compositions in 70’s were suited much to kishore voice and naturally they paved way for kishore’s rise as a singer in a overall way.”
I disagree, I don’t think Kishore had any sort of magestic voice. If he did, composers would have come running to him much earlier than in the 70’s. I think Kishore had a good voice, but definitely not in the same league as that of a Rafi, Lata, Yesudas, Mukesh etc. The compositions of the 70’s were suited for both Rafi and Kishore. Most of KK’s compositions were tailor-made for him, straight and simple, not very diffcult.
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“It is true rafi ruled h f m in 50’s & 60’s but it was kishore who displayed a full and clear edge from 70’s and in many cases you will note that rafi though was there, was in the role of a second fiddle. (My respects for great rafi and his earlier rule, but it is the time factor which made kishore popular)”
Kishore had an edge “only” for a few years, that is 1972-76, that’s all. Go check out the history books please and you will find exactly that. Why he had the edge in those years is due to a variety of reasons discussed before in detail here on this forum and elsewhere. One of the reasons is that Rafi took a long break from singing and KK took advantage of that (Rafi also cut down on his singing too for a variety of reasons as well). However when Rafi came back and started singing regularly, it wasn’t long before he came back to the top. What about Kishore in the 50’s and 60’s, he wasn’t even second, third or fourth, and more. Why don’t KK fans mention that ?. Atleast Rafi was able to keep pace for those few years after everything that happened and still regularly produce hits. Rafi and Kishore sang almost the same number of songs from 1970-1980, so all this talk about KK having a full and clear edge belongs in the dustbin. Rafi had a clear monopoly over singing, something no one has been able to accomplish (and he also came back to the top, another great and unique feat). KK’s rule was only for a few years and that too Rafi was there, and so were others like Mukesh, Mahendra Kapoor etc. In the 50’s and 60’s, others were there, but the gap between Rafi and the rest was so wide that it was a virtual monopoly.
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“Saigal had a nasal melody and classical talent and nothing beyond that, Mukesh too had soft touch, but not majestic sharpness again, manna dey too lacking in both.”
This is irrelevant to our discussion. I think Mukesh had a better voice than both Saigal and Manna. Mukesh definitely could impart a magestic feeling with his voice, not to the extent of Rafi, but definitely great in his own way.
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“Since you were specifically laying focus on voice factor, though irrelevant for discussion here, as noticed in the other true voice forum, from the southern singers, I have personally noticed that ghantasala’s voice did possess both softness and majestic sharpness factor as well as versatile talent. Yesudas too had soft touch but not majestic again.”
How is voice factor irrelevant here when I was responding to Anil’s post which talked about “voice”. I don’t think it was irrelevant at all and totally relevant. You may hae your opinions on Yesudas and Ghantasala, that’s fine, I personally think their voices were no where close to Rafi, although they had great voices.
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“Fine, as the discussion is only with reference to h f m, i shall restrict myself to that. What I want to convey is that it is true that rafi’s contribution was great in a particular time, to quote again and again that particular time and to show kishore in poor light in his own time, when he was ruling similar to rafi earlier, certainly cannot be accepted. With due respects to rafi, kishore stands kishore. In one recent rediff forums it has been debated and concluded that in bollywood kishore is the greatest playback singer.”
Rafi’s contribution to music is so great that it is in its own league and class and no one matches up (on the male side). It’s a joke to compare the contribution of Rafi and Kishore when they are miles a part. Rafi is consistent brilliance for more than three decades, something KK and others never accomplished.
I could care less about the Rediff forum, it doesn’t prove anything. Millions of other forums around the world have debated and concluded that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time. Regardless of any forum or regardless of anything, the truth is, and it has already been proven that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time.
Kishore was never the greatest playback singer by any stretch of the imagination. He doesn’t have that high of credentials anyways to even stake a claim for being the greatest. Please spare us the comedy.
Kishorefanji:
I like your line of argument but sorry to say it is not true.
Let me ask you a few questions:
Who has a more ‘majestic’ screen presence? Dharmendra or Shatrughan Sinha?
What exactly is a ‘majestic’ voice? Is it a ‘rough’ voice? or is it a ‘loud’ voice?
How would you rate Rafisahab’s voice in ‘zulfon ko hatha de chehre se..’? too soft..? and in ‘Hai agar dushman….’? and in ‘mein jat yamla pagla…’? and in ‘hum ne nahi socha tha…’? (Just some random selections)
Did Rafisahab’s voice look out of place on Pradeep Kumar, Raj Kumar, Dharmendra, Vinod Khanna or even Amitabh (the better known ‘toughies’ of Hindi film scene)?
Why Rafisahab could not be dislodged from the scene though Kishoreda had everything going for him in the ’70s (RDB, Rajesh Khanna, Amitabh Bachan and other ‘angry youngmen’, Bappi Lahiri et al) and Rafisahab had nothing on his side (except LP)?
How do you say Kishoreda’s stature in the ’70s was similar to Rafisahab’s in the ’60s? In the ’60s Rafisahab sang probably 60%+ songs while in the ’70s Kishoreda’s total tally would be only marginally ahead of Rafisahab’s. And if you compare the hit songs and quality songs by both these singers, KK wouldn’t be dominating, certainly nowhere close to the way afisahab did in the ’60s.
How many Yesudas songs have you heard? Do you think the voice you hear in ‘Mana ho tum….’ is not majestic?
Have you listened to a singer named P B Srinivas? If not, please listen to him and compare the voice with Ghantasalaji’s and tell me which one is more ‘majestic’.
Mykji:
Thanks for the links. You know what; I had started my serch for ‘mohabbat mein aji kya…..’ ever since you mentioned it here a year ago, but I could find it only some 3-4 months back.
Could you list out your top 20 Rafi-LP songs (solos and duets)?
Guru Murthy sir:
Nice to see your list of Rafi-LP and Lata-LP songs; waiting for your favourite Rafi-Lata duets under LP.