first and foremost, it is not worth getting so emotional over a musical discussion that doesn’t effect us directly in any way. it’s just a forum where we exchange opinions. i have not been rude to any of the fans here. i don’t see any reason why you all have to resort to personal insults over this matter.

getting back to your posts. many of you have quoted manna dey’s praise of rafi. i can do the same regarding kishore. pls read this interview of manna dey.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=mitra55.txt&writer=MITRA&validit=yes

for those of you who are too busy to read through it, let me post the relevant parts:

CM: You belong to a generation that produced the greatest male singers of our age. Who was the most talented of the lot?

MD: Undoubtedly Kishore. He was simply fantastic, especially considering he had no formal training in music. He was also a very colourful personality, always laughing and making others laugh. Of course, unlike us, he was very money-minded which was perhaps a good thing because those days, singers were often shortchanged. It is said he would walk out of a recording halfway if the money wasn’t paid. He had a driver called Abdul who would be sent off to the producer’s house to collect the fee in case it had not been paid in advance. Kishore would start singing but his expression would change according to the sign Abdul made from across the glass partition of the recording studio. He would beam if Abdul indicated in the positive, or make an excuse and stop midway if the indication was negative!

But his singing was just marvellous. I remember just staring at him almost to the point of losing my cue while recording Yeh dosti for Sholay. He was simply mesmerising.

CM: Getting back to singers of your time, how would you rate their abilities?

MD: Although I was closest to Talat Mahmood among the singers and felt sorry he destroyed himself by trying to become an actor, I believe Kishore was the best, followed by Rafi and Hemanta. Of them, Kishore and Hemanta had God-gifted voices. Rafi was a mix of a good voice and training. I honestly don’t place myself in the same category because mine is a trained voice. I have no hesitation in saying they were better than me.

Unknow,

i am a fan of KK but i am not a fan of RDB. i have already stated a couple of times in this forum that kishore’s best singing period was in the 1950’s and 1960’s (till about 1970 or 1971). After 1972, his voice started losing it’s flexibility and was not utilized well. further, once AB became the leading hero, there was hardly any focus on music (only action) and that was the main reason why there are very few melodious hit songs in that period.

why do all of you only talk about RDB when you talk about kishore ? RDB used kishore fully only in the late-60’s (padosan) and early 1970’s (starting with kati patang). kishore made his debut in 1948 with ziddi and sang close to 300 songs before RDB came into the picture. kishore sang his best songs for many movies in the 1950’s. some movies were hits and some were not, but the songs were hits.

here are a few where kishore’s voice was melodious and his singing was as smooth as silk (and the MD was not SDB). his transition across registers was effortless and there is no strain in his voice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxuLswNyFmA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XQRvmAwUL0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2lwaK2MKOw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSP03xwwUgI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ElDU6zndg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhqgK0vUjB0

also, if naushad felt that way about kishore, anil biswas felt the same about rafi. what do you say about that ? c ramachandra had the highest regard for kishore’s capabilities and potential as a singer. and c ramachandra was a musician trained in the best of classical music (he and bhimsen joshi had the same guru - sawai gandharva).

as much as most of you want to try and make something you believe in to be a fact, rafi’s classical singing doesn’t make the cut. he can convince a listener uninitiated into classical music, but if you have an ear tuned to classical music, it is very clear that he missed that grasp of classical music.

the trouble with kishore is that kishore makes it look easy. he rarely draws attention to his singing. it’s just smooth as silk and seems so natural that all the hard work and artistry behind the songs is overlooked. rafi and manna dey make it much more obvious that singing well is hard work. it’s easy to admire “man tarpat hari darshan” or “o duniye ke rakhwaale” because every phrase of the song calls attention to itself as a Classical song that is hard to sing. Admiration is the expected reaction — and also the lazy one.

for all the alleged “simplicity” of kishore’s songs, i have not come across a single person who can re-create most of his songs.

most of you dismiss yodelling as though it were noise. that is just an indirect way of saying “i am sorry, i just cannot do it”. that only proves that if there is something you cannot replicate, you just push it away using the excuse that “it is not music”. music doesn’t have to stick to “traditions” to be called “good music”.

Mr. Bose, same is the case with you, your bias for Kishore will not make you see others who were better than him. You may like/not like Rafi, and Kishore may be your favourite, but you should know that no singer was as good or in the same league and class as Rafi. If you cannot see this, it doesn’t really matter, and no one cares, but may you be shown the right path in the future.

Anyways, one doesn’t have to acknowledge the truth, for it to be the truth. If one does not want to accept reality, it still won’t change the truth that Rafi is the greatest of all time. No matter what Mr. Bose, anyone on RMIM, any fools, or anyone out there in the world says, the truth, reality and fact is that Mohammad Rafi Saab is the greatest singer of all time, and the first and last word in singing. It’s also great to know that most of the knowledgeable people out there in music, such as singers, musicians, MD’s, lyricists etc. (including fans) think so as well.

The last sentence in the first paragraph of my previous post should read as:

“There is a huge space/gap between Rafi and the rest, as Rafi is in a league and class of his own”.

Rafi was, is, and always will be the greatest singer of all time, and the first and last word in singing.

Btw, Mr. Bose, you’re the one that brought all this on yourself with all these nonsense and fantasy claims of yours, so the fact that you mention that you have no desire to argue with anyone or prove your “classical” credentials hold no water. If you are going to make such silly statements, then atleast try and back them up. Ofcourse you will never be able to back them up since your statement are silly, but don’t blame others for giving you a dose of reality. Your stupid comments would make any sane person react. Don’t bow out and chicken out from the game and say you don’t want to prove yourself, just admit you can’t prove yourself and end it there. Your statements will never be taken seriously by any knowledgeable music fan, so I suggest you stop posting more trash.

Mr. Bose,

Some more bias examples from you. The point is that no matter what you say, you will never prove that Kishore was equal to Rafi. Rafi will always remain the greatest singer of all time, and this is the view of the majority of musicains, singers, lyricists etc. including Kishore himself. What you are saying is just frankly your opinion and not the truth on musical terms.

For a person who says KLS sang classical songs better than Rafi, you should take their comments with a pinch of salt. Pandit Gyan Prakash Gosh and KC Dey considered Rafi the best exponent of classical music, which he truly was, as shown by his songs. I’ll definitely take their views over yours, a junior in musical knowledge, and regardless of their words or what anyone says, its simply clear that Rafi was arguably the best male singer for classical songs. “Madhuban mein radhika” is the best exponent of Raag Hameer to this day. Rafi was the best at singing any type of songs, from raag-based gems to western songs to any type, you name it and he was the best at it.

Kishore songs also have the “noise” and “irritating” factor because his voice in general was not sweet, nor melodious, and was loud and not soothing. The only “true-tone” voice was Rafi’s voice who’s voice was very golden, very sweet, very smooth, very flexible, full of different shades, had perfect tonal quality, very melodious and like mount everest. Kishore’s voice was a mixed bag, on a good day his voice was just good, nothing outstanding, but in general it had a shrill, and was not flexible at all. His voice many a times seemed as if a tire was running over it (no disrespects meant to Kishore).

It’s mind-boggling how one can possibly rank Kishore alongside Rafi and the greatest singers of HFM ?. Saying Kishore’s voice was fluid and mellifluous and that sometimes his mere speech sometimes took on a musical temper is equivalent to saying Kumar Sanu had the best voice in the 90’s. It may be your opinion, but in reality its definitely not the truth. Kishore was no where close to being musically gifted. He was a good composer, but as far as singing was concerned he had many many flaws and drawbacks. A knowledgeable music fan and knowledgeable Kishore fan would accept this, and totally disagree with what you’re writing, but a bias Kishore fan such as yourself will not due to the fact that you are bias as well as other reasons. Singers like Yesudas, SPB, Ghantasala, TMS, Mukesh etc. were far better than Kishore and the best of them all was Rafi.

I have heard all those Kishore songs you mentioned from those films, and some are good, but nothing exceptional, and they even are no where close to any of Rafi’s average songs. Rafi’s average songs sound better than those Kishore’s songs because of the high level of brilliance from Rafi, so if that’s the case, forget about Rafi’s best songs, as they are totally out of Kishore’s league. As a Kishore fan, I was expecting you to come up with better songs, but you once again proved me wrong. I don’t blame you, since Kishore definitely doesn’t have the repertoire to match Rafi. Take Rafi songs in any genre (classical, sad, romantic, happy, bhajans, western, pop, jazz etc.), and they will top the list, you can’t say the same about Kishore’s songs or anyone else’s songs in any genre. What a joke to compare an amateur like Kishore to a giant like Rafi.

Kishore’s voice, range etc. were no where close to Rafi’s, its hilarious to even compare the two on that merit, as well as to associate Kishore’s name in the same breath and sentence as Rafi. Why don’t you take a chapter from SDB’s and other’s books and stop your nonsense, and engrave his words into your mind that KK and any other singer will never ever match up to Rafi. If any fair comparison is to be made, it should be Rafi vs Lata.

Ofcourse one can say with absolute certainty and clarity that Rafi was far better and superior to Kishore as well as any other singer because that is the reality and the truth. Your posts have shown that you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and that you have a clear bias. Kishore was nothing like Richards, if he was, then he would have been the greatest singer of all time. Kishore at best can be considered like a junior cricketer, someone not meant for the big leagues. Why was Kishore no even considered a fourth option for singing in the 50’s and 60’s ?. Why did it take him so long to get noticed if he was so great ?. There lies your answer, so please spare us the nonsense and refrain from making such silly comparisons. Your views have already been torn a part by many here, but take them to musicians and pandits and they will laugh at you and rip them apart. So save youself the embarrasment and stop from posting such trash. Rafi was Richards, Bradman and everyone rolled into one. He was ‘Saatwan Sur’, a phenomenon.

I totally disagree with your view that RDB was successful due to Kishore. Pancham was successfull because he was a mega-talent, definitely not due to Kishore, and he gave Kishore straight and peppy tunes that were popular and this is the reason why Kishore was successful. RR was also very talented, not as much as RD, but talented in his own way. Even Bappi was talented, Kishore didn’t make him successful, so Kishore didn’t make any MD successful with his singing. On the other hand, Rafi made a whole lot of MD’s successful and great (along with the MD’s own talent), but you can’t say that about Kishore and any other male singer except Rafi. Also, had Rafi sang those songs that Kishore sang composed by RD, RR, Bappi etc., they would have been a countless number of times better than what they are.

You look like one of those insecure Kishore fans fighting to keep yourself above water in a wide sea. Your case is drowning by the minute, as the more you try and defend Kishore, the more you drown.

binu nair

thanks for posting an objective and reasonable reply to my post. i wish other fans would have done the same. discussions can be had without resorting to flames. but that’s probably why there are fans, . and i am telling this in an unaffected way. i get irritated similarly when kishore’s fans start fawning on him on his websites.

anyways, getting back to the points in discussion. i did point out songs where kishore’s improvisations are a little more obvious but the point stands that they are obvious mainly because they were made outside the actual “song” itself. improvisations within the song, of which there are plenty of examples, are more easily explained because great playback singers have a proclivity for expression that lends itself to subtle variations such as inflection of the voice, change in its texture, punctuation which involves proper placement of gaps in adjacent words, tailing off of the tone and so on.

Kishore, like rafi, was abundantly blessed with these gifts by which he could elevate even the most pedestrian of tunes and lyrics to the status of high art.

but kishore went even further. any doubters of kishore’s imagination with respect to music just have to give an ear to songs from “Door gagan ki chaon mein” and “Door ka rahi”, or even “Jhumroo” - films for which he composed and sang most of the songs. such beautiful and melodious compositions like “Aa chal ke tujhe”, “koi lauta de mere”, “beqarar-e-dil”, “panthi hoon main”, “thandi hawa yeh chandni”, “matwaale hum matwaale tum” etc. give an indication of how musically gifted he was.

regarding 1, kishore’s voice is in fact one of the very few “true-tone” voices in the music industry. it was crisp, clear and robust, fluid and mellifluous. so much so that sometimes his mere speech sometimes took on a musical temper.

while it is true that there are certain genres of songs that rafi sang that kishore would probably not have been able to do justice to, it is more because of rafi’s unique voice than due to kishore’s technical limitations. and vice versa is also true.

many people comment on rafi’s superiority as being de facto, as if it is a fact, and the proof being that most MDs chose him over other singers, esp. through most of the 1960’s. however, it is a more superficial arguement that it appears.

people who tout the fact that stalwart MDs like OPN, Naushad, Khayyam etc. chose rafi, need to agree that, while rafi did do full justice to most of the songs outside the semi-classical, a certain, and by no means small, amount of credit for the compositions should go to the MD’s too. kishore had no such luxury. it is to entirely to his credit that MD’s like RDB, rajesh roshan, bappi lahiri were so successful. while you said in your earlier post that kishore’s songs for these MD’s were still mediocre, you forgot the point that i was making. had these songs been sung by any other singer, including rafi, they would have been even less than mediocre.

further i wouldn’t even listen to songs from sharaabi (except, perhaps, for “Log kehte hain”) and alag alag. they were mediocre outputs from fading MD’s using an aging kishore.

i still maintain that rafi’s semi-classical prowess probably carries more repute than it actually warrants. if somebody who argues that rafi is as good as lata or saigal in rendering classical songs (and then goes on to point to a few rafi-lata popular duets), i would say they have no clue as to what to look for, technically.

take a song like “madhuban mein radhika”. rafi doesn’t go off-key anywhere in this song, and yet he fails to bring out the gist of the raga (hameer). on the other hand, lata’s rendering of “man mohana bade jhoote” comes immersed in jaijaivanti raga.

even a cursory listening to lata’s songs like “jyoti kalash” from “bhabhi ki choodiyan” or “Sanware sanware” from “anuradha” or “man mohana bade jhoote” will give an indication of the vast gulf between her and the rest. it’s hard to overstate her command of the swara.

similarly, one could listen to “rum jhum rum jhum chal tihari” from “tansen” by saigal (in shankara raga) and marvel. he covers a full two octaves in this song, and glides through it beautifully. and he doesn’t make it appear like he is struggling anywhere.

i have no desire to argue with the rest of the posters nor do i have any desire to “prove” my classical credentials.

most of the posters who criticize kishore take only his songs from the 1970’s as an example. people forget that kishore made his debut in 1948, and has sung some beautiful songs during the 1950’s and 1960’s. the fact that they continue to repeat ad nauseum the same mantra, tells me that they have no clue as to kishore’s earlier works for MD’s like khemchand prakash, sajjad ali, anil biswas, husnlal-bhagatram, n datta etc.

just to give a few samples:

husn bhi hai udhaas
woh meri taraf yun
aa mohabbat ki basti
lehron se pooch lo
mere dil meri jaan
mere neendon mein tum
yeh raatein yeh mausam

a rough analogy of the difference between the two can be given by the following example. rafi can be likened to gavaskar, a man of impeccable technique, a man by the book, well-rehearsed while kishore can be likened to somebody like richards. nobody can teach you to play like him, but what he does out there is pure magic.

one could argue that rafi sang a wider spectrum of songs, and appreciate him for that. but, from a purely technical angle, it cannot be said with any certainty that rafi was the superior singer. rafi, being a tenor, could sing at an “absolute” higher pitch than other singers. but, that doesn’t make him superior to other singers. otherwise, many classical singers (bhimsen joshi even) would have to quit, if “absolute” high pitch singing is the sole criteria for judging singers.

likewise, kishore (being a baritone) could go to an “absolute” lower pitch than most singers (hemant kumar is the only other singer who comes close), and yet i don’t take that into effect.

However with Kishore Kumar this was not always the case. Most of the time
movies has to be a hit at the box-office for his songs to be successful. Take
for example some actors for whom he sang. When Dev Anand was a big star
in the 50’s and 60’s whenever KK sang for him majority of the time songs were hits however in the 70’s when his films were not doing well so were the songs sung by KK (maybe one song per movie was successful).
When Rajesh Khanna was the superstar of the early 70’s KK was providing
hits after hits (this possibly was the best that was produced by KK in quality
also) but no sonner as Rajesh Khanna movies started to fare badly at the box-
office so do the songs by KK (again one or two hit songs per movie). Even
Amithab Bachan early movies at the box-office were not hits and in those movies KK did not perform that well.
This also explains why we don’t hear quite a few of the hit songs that KK gave
at the time and are no longer popular now (like today’s music), because if
a movie is successful then even a average song can become a hit but fades away after some time. This proves that KK never really was a King maker
contrary to claims by many of his fans who says because of him many stars
became superstars. I think he always went with the tide and never against
the tide.
Also we need to remember in the 50’s and 60’s music played a major role for
any movie to become a hit. However in the 70’s movies were mostly action
based with multi-star cast and more importance to dialogues, here music was
given less importance, lot of movies became big hits even though music of those movies was just average. These things also helped KK to remain on top
in that period as the bar was lowered as far a music was concerned.