True Voice - Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69″ to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
December 25th, 2007 at 6:28 am
vitthal continues,
mr. venkatadri garu,
further to my earlier message, i want to tell in no uncertain terms that ghantasala garu’s command over telugu as well as sanskrit language (language of gods as used be called by swami vivekananda) is far superior to rafi garu’s command over hindi language. I do not know whether this factor perhaps will count or not as a versatality factor in the thoughts of sri venkatadri garu.
December 24th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Ramakrishna garu - post 662 and Venkatadari garu - post 666
Ramakrishna garu, i too like mr. venkatadri garu in post 666 do not agree to your proposition of ghantasala garu and rafi garu as equally great.
In fact, in my personal view, ghantasala garu is greatest and rafi garu closely follows him. Whatever views people may have, about this there is no doubt. The versatile talent of ghantasala in rendering not only songs of all type, but padyams, slokams what not is simply incomparable.
One more major point venkatadri garu, sri ghantasala garu had the greatest fortune of singing at tirumala temple. It is held that he is the only singer who had the fortune of singing at the world no. 1 temple after saint annamacharya in the 15th century. Who else other than an individual who is blessed by the lord himself can enjoy such fortune ? His voice thus has been recognised by god almighty himself. Ghantasala garu is in fact a god sent singer to earth to show the taste of music to the earthly people and he was taken away by divinity early than rafi garu so that he can continue his songs at the divine plane.
My views does not anyway contradict the greatness of rafi garu who was a great legend in his own field please.
December 24th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
venkatadri sahab,
i feel you are younger to me and i have no regrets for your messages. i agree that i have limited knowledge of ghantasala sahab songs which are truly only 4, i do not know about other songs pl. but truly i say that these 4 songs have hit my heart. it is for you to believe or not. I feel happy to note that my analysis of the great songs of ghantasala sahab have been acknowledged in true spirit by vasu sahab and ramakrishna sahab, the matured carnatic musicians (i should congratulate for their well balanced and beautiful messages pl.)
Ramakrishna sahab, your views are fully correct. your poetry is quite heart rendering especially your views on full moon and night moon and comparing the same to great legends such as rafi sahab and ghantasala sahab, the two greats from the indian film world. kindly continue posting such great views to enlighten our readers here.
December 24th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
venkatadri garu,
if you feel your views are alone correct, we also feel our views are also correct. i feel sorry to state that you are contradicting your own views. in one of your messages i have seen that you state no body can sing a padyam like ghantasala. i am thankful at least you have agreed and used the word no singer can sing that is fine. again you use the same word for rafi as saying that no singer can be compared to rafi. you are using the same words for both singers and again deviating from your own statements. I think out of too much emotion you are being led away on the track. pl. do not mistake for my comments, but i feel i had to tell you about your track pl.
Ramakrishna garu, i fully agree with your views.
Both rafi sahab, the unparalleled incomparable legend from bollywood and similarly ghantasala, are equally great.
December 24th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
ramakrishna garu, greetings,
I fully subscribe and agree to the views you have posted. true music lovers and people with proper judgement faculty can alone understand that both the legends are equally great. if one specialises in some areas, the other is specialist in other areas. I have seen from some messages in telugu site also that people there are fighting in a similar way. I have seen many messages from telugu people that ghantasala is no. one followed closely by rafi from the indian singers. But as we have argued several times, the above view of ours always holds good.
Ramakrishna garu, we have never disputed rafi sahab’s greatness because we cannot dispute that also. we have in fact introduced ghantasala garu only to enlighten our esteemed hindi friends about the great talent of this great legend and not to pave way for any litigations here. But i feel again discussions are taking undesirable turns from both sides which seems painful. ok whatever the views of our esteemed friends may be, we shall continue to post our pure and true views because a true music lover never desists from his true statements.
December 24th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
hello to all gentlemen,
I am from the united states of america and i remember having posted one message here very long back on this rafi vs ghantasala discussion. I am surprised to see today that even today this discussion has not come to an end. indeed great. unless both are great how can such long discussions continue. i would like to present some of my views again. i have many german, u s, u k and also japanese friends to whom i have made to listen both rafi and ghantasala songs in particular as introducing them as great singers from india. i can say with pride that all of my friends have confirmed both voices with superior melody and heart rendering and describing both as equally great. it is wrong to say that rafi alone has reached global levels, even the above fact confirms ghantasala having reached global levels.
i feel painful to note the immatured discussions by the so called rafi fans here when people from other corners of the globe, who do not have basic knowledge of hindi and telugu languages are matured enough to arrive at a better conclusion about these two great and incomparable legends. we should feel ashamed of ourselves for having fighting over these issues in a wrongful way. i hopefully feel at least my message shall have an effect on the readers here.
mr. venkatadri ji, i have noticed many times that you are talking much about versatality and ranges abour rafi. that is ok, nobody denies this. But i need not tell you that there is no singer in the entire world who can sing slokas and padyams equivalent to ghantasala and you are quite aware of this. there are few hundreds (may be thousands) of slokas and padyams (leave his great songs) rendered by ghantasala . rafi’s range fits only to songs and ghazals and related compositions. with that range only you are stating him to be completely versatile. this cannot be true. a versatile singer to be completely versatile should cover areas wherein no other singer can venture at all, that is true versatality and not your view of versatality please. hence rafi’s versatality is limited only to his field of music and not beyond that please. hence if you feel rafi to have a edge over ghantasala, i think you have to revisit your arguments once again in this context.
Hence, i completely subscribe to view of ramakrishna garu that both ghantasala and rafi are equally great and incomparable legends in their own fields and have their own eras and charm and following till date.
mr. hussein sheikh, i feel you are writing without knowing ghantasala and his songs. i myself quote one example, if you make some body who has not known rafi to listen to rafi songs and if you give some isolated song of rafi from late seventies, it may not be beautiful, similarly if you give a song of ghantasala just before his death (which is not attractive as other songs), it may not sound good. I feel you might have heard such song and posting views. pl.hear to voice of ghantasala in the fifties and sixties and you will know what he is. pl. do not take offence as i have posted this only to remove your ignorant feelings about the legend.
December 24th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Friends,
I asked Mr. Khan and Mr. Arun to answer three questions on Rafi Saab. As they did not attempt any replies, I would now answer them and in the process try to discuss the many great facets of Rafi Saab.
In this post, I would just handle the Question No.1, namely 15 solos of Rafi Saab under Chitragupta, other than the commonly known ‘Jaag Dil-e-Deewana’ and ‘Chal Ud Jaa Re Panchhi’.
Chitragupta ranks third ouf all the MDs (about 250 of them, big and small!) in the number of songs that an MD had recorded for Rafi Saab! He had composed a whopping 248+ songs for Rafi Saab. But, unfortunately, he remained an underrated MD all through.
In the context of Chitragupta, most people remember only the two common Rafi solos, named above. Some who are more knowledgeable may know his “Mujhe Dard-e-Dil Ka Pata Na Thha” song from Film:Aakash Deep.
Now, we al know what great compositions and what great renditions by Rafi Saab these three solos are. Today, I would mention a few more great and divine solos of Rafi Saab under Chitragupta. In this post, I would only deal with the romantic ones. I would reserve the melancholy ones for the next post.
1. “Chhand Kitni Door Thha, Sitare Kitni Door Thhe, Tum Jo Aagye To Sab Kareeb Aa Gayen”—Film:Afsaana(1966). When I downloaded this song some months back from HF, I kept on listening to it non-stop, for over 25 times!
2.”Aate Ho Sataane Ko, Jaate Ho Rulane Ko, Is Aane Ko Kya Kahiyen, Is Jaane Ko Kya Kahiyen—Abhi Na Phero Nazar, Zindagi Sanwar To Len”–Film:Biradari(1966). This song starts with the Aalaap, “Aate Ho Sataane Ko—” and the main song is “Abhi Na Phero Nazar–”. A monster of a song picturised on Shashi Kapoor. Which female won’t fall for this lethal combo!
3.”Itni Badi Duniya, Jahan Itna Bada Mela, Magar Main, Kitna Akela”–Film:Toofan Mein Pyaar kahan(1966). Another divine rendition by Rafi Saab in an extremely controlled , whispering voice! And see how he gives a small laugh after the words, “Magar Main” and see his breath release therein. This is also one of the standard Chitragupta songs with an excellent use of the Saxophone.
4.”Mukhde Pe Tere Bijli Ki Chamak, Zulfon Mein Ghata Leharati Hai, Chal Tham Ke Zara”–Film:Aadhi Raat Ke Baad(1965). Another great romantic solo.
5.”Leke Sahara Tere Pyaar Ka, Dekhe Rasta Tera, Haaye Koyi Beqarar Sa”–Film:Naache Nagin Baaje Been(1960). Another great, but somewhat sober, solo.
May I request the Admin. to see if he could upload the first three solos mentioned above, for the benefit of members. Alternatively, I would do so, if I am told the procedure for it.
I would continue this discussion in my next post.
Venkatadri
December 24th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Also, I would like to add that Rafi saab never suffered any set-back. He maintained his outstanding consistency for over three plus decades, something which no other male playback singer has been able to do, recording gem after gem of quality, soulful and haunting songs.
December 24th, 2007 at 8:18 am
In continuation of my post no. 665, Rafi Saab has a clear edge over Ghantasala in all the departments of Playback singing, both in quality and quantity at that high quality!
Venkatadri
December 24th, 2007 at 8:14 am
Ramakrishna garu,
While I took the trouble of writing down in my post the range of 3 octaves only, as the line length won’t be adequate, I never said that there are three octaves only. On the contrary, I clarified that hypothetically, there can be infinite number of octaves. Out of these, only few octaves are humanly possible (the highest ever no. of octaves being possible for Rafi Saab!) and only few octaves are availble on different musical instruments. I know some Piano’s wherein 7.5 octaves are available!
Now, the bottomline has got to be this, Ramakrishna garu. I do not agree at all to your proposition that both are equally great. Rafi Saab has a definite edge over the other in all departments of Playback singing (you name them!). Even you are aware of this!
Venkatadri
December 24th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Dear Mr. Arun (Ref post 656):
Thanks for your write-up. Kishore Kumar did NOT provide any sort of competition to Rafi saab at ALL, and the fact that he became popular does not take anything away from Rafi’s greatness.
You mentioned Kishore as competition, are you forgetting the fact that Kishore could not break in as a singer due to Rafi’s very hold over the male playback scene. Let me add some history for you here. Kishore came to Mumbai to be a singer as singing was his first love. He could not breakthrough in the 50’s because composers didn’t think too highly of him (except SD Burman who kept on giving him songs) and he wasn’t even considered a third or fourth singing option, which is why he had to resort to acting. Anyone who says otherwise does not know KK’s history and this is all mentioned by himself in his interviews. So what competition did he provide to Rafi ?. Becoming popular in the seventies due to various reasons which I will explain below and having hit songs does not justify competition. He was no where to be found previously, that he needed the backing of the Burmans as well as a new actor to become popular, so much for competition, and Rafi didn’t have any compeition nor did he need any because he was far above the rest. Compare the two in terms of singing, talent, range etc. and you will know why Kishore was definitely no compeititon to Rafi. If he was he would have made a mark earlier in the scene, which he did not, and not because acting took him away from singing which is hilarious to say the least as proclaimed by many Kishore bhakts who don’t have a clue about their idol.
The reasons for Kishore’s popularity:
*backing of the Burmans (both father and son after Aradhana), they felt that since Kishore had lost out in the past two decades, why not help his singing career out. Pancham (RDB) and Kishore were great friends and he did what any friend would do and that is help Kishore out, and it was more to their advantage that Pancham’s career was on the rise as well.
*Rafi stopped singing for almost a year around 1971 due to a maulvi telling him in Haj that singing was haram and during that time he stayed in england, which meant songs had to go to others, and so Kishore lapped up the majority of them as well as other singers. If Rafi had not left the scene, this whole idea or media myth about Rafi taking a backseat would never have come up.
*Kishore became popular due to Aradhana and even if Rafi had not left Kishore would probably have continued to produce winners with Pancham, but this would not have affected Rafi in any way as he showed after he came back from his singing break.
*Kishore’s popularity was due to a change in trends as well as the rise of Rajesh Khanna which added a lot to Kishore’s popularity as well, which has nothing to do with Rafi saab. The audiences lapped up this trend which was alright, and a new trend didn’t matter, it was a wave, and going to end some time, whereas Rafi was supreme long lasting quality.
*As far as singing is concerned, by 1970 Rafi was already the benchmark along with Lata, so Kishore’s popularity didn’t mean much, it just meant his singing career received a second chance.
*Once Rafi came back from his break, things started to balance out more on the charts and then he made a huge comeback on the charts and regained his throne once again toward the late seventies. Before his death in 1980 he was on top and had proved yet again he was timeless. As far as talent is concerned, he was already the King, its just Binaca Geet Mala and hit charts, Kishore had the edge for a few years due to the reasons above. Ofcourse charts do not measure the quality of a song nor singing talent, so in the end it doesn’t really matter. Even during this time Rafi’s popularity did not diminish at all, it was always the greatest even if Kishore now had songs on the hit list. During those few years, Rafi still produced many winners on the charts so its not as if he stopped singing or left the scene due to Kishore.
So the term “competition” vis a vis Rafi and Kishore does not exist because he was no threat nor competition at all to Rafi, they were miles apart in talent.
Whether or not another singer came up during Ghantasala’s period or not does not mean anything when comparing him to another singer, including Rafi via talent. If you are talking about charts and so forth then it is a valid barometer but the only reason why Rafi didn’t have as many hits as KK on the charts for a small time is due to his leave as well as KK singing in big budget films due to reasons that Rafi was not available or composers producers cashing in on the trend which was normal, nothing to do with Rafi’s greatness.
Well how about Rafi who ruled sway for over two decades and more (and then for a period before his death), that he left all the competition behind, that the industry conceded that Rafi’s voice was the one and only box office pull, the voice of the majority of heroes as well as the top for the majority of MD’s. Such was his monopoly over male playback that no one could even think about breaking in, or even compete with him, that includes anyone from any region. Also, you have to keep in mind we are talking about a much larger industry at hand with more at stake, and much more competition, something in which Ghantasala did not compete in nor sing in that environment. To hold such a monopoly over a huge industry is something very big and deserves honourable mention (just like Lata), which is why Rafi is regarded as the greatest and the benchmark. This is not to say that if Ghantasala was in such an environment he would not have fared well, he would have done great, but considering Rafi’s range, versitility and considering he was a “one-man industry” it is hard to believe he would have offered competition to him in any way. So basically, Rafi had NO competition from anyone whatsoever because he left everyone far behind.
Also, all comparisons whether from the south, east, west and north all target towards Rafi. On this forum and elsewhere I have seen KK vs Rafi, Ghantasala vs Rafi, SPB vs Rafi, Manna vs Rafi, Talat vs Rafi etc., as you can see, the common denominator is Rafi, which says everything in itself.
In regards to status, Rafi was the most popular then and is now as well. It didn’t matter to him what scenarios he had to face in his career, he was always hugely popular around the world. I agree, when Ghantasala passed away, telegu songs were never the same again, but the same happened with Rafi’s passing away. Rafi’s death in 1980 was one of the biggest catastrophes to hit the indian music industry, and after that music was never the same again. Look what happened after his death, the industry sunk and went into a hole, not even lata, kishore, asha or the newcomers could keep it a float, Rafi made all the difference, and with Rafi melody was still there and surviving, with him it was finished.
Let me say I do acknowledge Ghantasala as an excellent singer, one of the greatest, but he can not be compared to “Saatwan Sur” Rafi, because Rafi is the benchmark, the barometer for judging a singer’s worth. They can’t be compared because one attempted and mastered much more genres, had a wider range and covered far more territory (he was like an all-rounder), in this case Rafi, whereas Ghantasala was great within his own range and genres. Rafi was a phenomenon in the world of singing.
I agree with you that the South has produced many exceptional talents, from Ghantasala, Yesudas to Janaki, to P. Susheela, SPB, TMS, Ilayaraaja, MSV and so forth.
December 23rd, 2007 at 10:37 pm
i take a ‘vow’ that i will never comment on shri ghantasala in this
site ……forever as this is a site of legend shri mohd rafi…
binu nair…
December 23rd, 2007 at 9:11 pm
hussein sheikh sahab- 661 post pl.
you have not responded to my message in post 642 please. I am waiting for your reply. Unless you reply, i feel your views are incomplete.
December 23rd, 2007 at 8:34 pm
respected gentlemen,
i am listening to these comments & comparison between the two maestroes whom time has snatched from us .
in my earlier post i had mentioned that one is the ‘ north pole’ and other is the ‘ south pole’.
one is like the sky in full moon night & the other is like the sky in new moon night. where both of these states are absolutely beautiful & mind blowing.
we have gone a long long way in comparing, fighting and arguing. please let us stop this issue. of course this has given us a lot of knowledge about the scales, ragas etc.
all the times we had only two songs one is ‘ sivasankari ‘ & the second is ‘ zindabaad’, when there umpteen number of songs of these two ‘ legends’
in telugu the comedy songs were rendered by p.b.srinivas & madhavapeddy, where as in hindi rafi sahab rendered romantic, pathetic, comedy, ghazalas & naats. please here the naat ‘ allah mere allah ‘ by rafi sahab. i am sure tears will roll down your eyes. and another number ‘ main kab gaata mere swar main , pyar kiseeka gata hai’ by rafi sahab. you will be totally emotional my friends.
here one says ghantasaala garu is great when some one fights rafi sahab is great, when both are equally great.
mr hussain shaikh without understanding the raagas of music please for heavens sake just dont say that rafi sahab is superior to ghantasaala garu.
mr venkatadri garu your explanation about the octaves is ok. in fact if you see the key board there are 4 octaves. the first ‘ sa’ in the second octave is the last ‘ sa’ of the first octave. when a singer starts the song he starts with a note which we say ‘ swaram’ . this is called the ‘ key note’. in the ‘ charanam’ or ‘ antara’ he attains the highest ‘ note’ or ‘ swaram ‘ & when he goes back to the ‘ pallavi’ or ‘ antara’ he drops down to the lowest ‘ note ‘ or ‘ swaram’ .
in the highest point he reaches the ‘ ga’ of the next higher octave , similarly in the lowest ‘ note ‘ or ‘ swaram ‘ he reaches the ‘ pa’ of the adjacent lower octave. this is with any singer please.
mr arun, your psot 656,
probably you are not aware that while ghantasaala garu had developed respiratory problem, for a number of songs he was supported by ramakrishna garu, when ghantasaala garu sang one line the next line was sung by ramakrishna garu. the gap between ghantasaala garu & spb was filled by ramakrishna garu , whom time has shunted out from the field due to various politics.
mr vasu garu i think i have not mentioned any thing wrong here.
finally once again i request all to stop this arguements who is the ‘ master’ & who is the ‘ follower ‘
music is ‘divine’. ghantasaala garu and rafi sahab are the
‘divine incarnations’, irreplaceable & uncomparable.
December 23rd, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Please do not drag this ghantasala to this site. He cannot be even close to Rafi Saheb.
December 23rd, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Mr. Arun and Mr. Khan,
On some reflection, I am sorry if I had been a bit harsh on you two in some of my posts. Probably, I was a bit carried away.
But, otherwise, let me assure you that there is no change in my view that you two do not have (1) sufficient knowledge of even Ghantasala songs, leave aside Rafi songs, and (2) the musical ear/ taste/knowledge, needed to make such determinations/comparisons.
Venkatadri
December 23rd, 2007 at 3:24 pm
Vasu garu,
I appreciate your balanced post. Suffice it to say, without going into intricate octave-note-determinations, I cna say that there are scores of Rafi songs, that go from the lowest possible scale to the highest possible in the same song! In fact, Zindabad song goes only to the highest scale and does not go down the scale anywhere. But, you have songs like “Meri Kahani Bhoolne Wale” from Deedar, “Subha Na Aaye Sham Na aaye” from Cha Cha Cha, “Yeh Mehalon, Yeh Thakthon” forem Pyaasa, which remain on utmost low pitch for some time and then climax to the highest possible scales in the endings! Actually, while listening to such Rafi songs, genuine music-lovers get visibly restless and disturbed and their hairs raise literally. I am one of such millions of listeners.
Now, let me assure you that “Sivasnkari Sivananda Lahari” from Jagadeka Veeruni Katha is indeed a great song and Ghantasala had sung it in a divine manner. In fact, I am not making any derogatory references to it. I am only responding to ignorant comments to the effect that no Rafi Saab’s song is equal or higher in scale than Sivasankari.
Hope it is clear.
Venkatadri
December 23rd, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Arun,
As you have not even studied A, B, C, D of music, it will be difficult tfor you to understand intricacies of octaves, etc., which are equivalent to at least undergraduation level!
A dignified silence would do you a lot of good!
Venkat
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Sri venkatadri garu,
You are quite aware that siva sankari is composed in the top most pitch, but i feel you are willingly arguing regarding the song. in the song, ghantasala garu has touched the da (suddha daivate note) in the lower octave at which the song runs for some time , was in the middle octave for the charanam and succeeding svaras (the ragam in the middle is a mix up of second and third octaves) and the final mix up of swara alapana commences on the high ni in the second octave and as mr.arun states in the concluding stage touches the top ni swara in the third and final octave leaving space only for sa in the final octave. This is indeed true. Sir, kindly do not otherwise think, but could you kindly tell why you are so much after the pro’s and con’s of this song, which is undoubtedly exceptional, despite arguments by qualified musicians in this regard.
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:29 pm
dear myk - post 655 please.
thanks for your response. I am not disputing any of your facts and also acknowledge your appreciation and regard for both the singers. Indeed rafi sahab is very very great and exceptional. None denies this. But one point, not only i, you and other readers will agree that despite rafi sahab’s greatness and exceptional talent he had to face competition from kishore kumar ji and he took a back seat temporarily. But this kind of situation did not arise during the entire career of ghantasala, he was the supreme one preferred and no singer has been been identified to match or compete with his voice. even today that holds true. esteemed people like mr. venkatadri ji (as he has earlier argued) might say that there is lack of talent in south which is not true (instances are jesudas, spb, p b srinivas, t m soundarrajan etc.) in fact, interestingly spb holds the record for highest number of songs i.e thirty thousand plus as on date. This proves the talent of south indian singers. (instance is spb only)
I had once met spb in etv show paaduta tiyaga and raised this question to him. spb’s view was that different individuals are blessed in different ways. Ghantasala was blessed with a voice and talent which ensured no competition or similar voice and talent exists and rafi sahab was blessed with voice which earned him a universal glory. thus, i wish to draw your kind attention to these facts please which i hope every reader will agree.
sir, i have very high regard for rafi sahab, but could you please clarify whether did rafi sahab enjoy such status which was enjoyed by ghantasala and continues to be enjoyed (same is case with ghantasala, his fame generally confined to regional level, he being a regional singer and so does not enjoy the universal status enjoyed by rafi because he has been associated with the national language.) i.e. why i had stated both are different poles and are imcomparable in their own fields. When ghantasala died, for a period of 6 years i.e upto release of sankarabharanam in 1980 many people lost interest in telugu songs because that voice and void could not be filled. this is the essence of my argument sir, what do you say about it.
December 23rd, 2007 at 5:31 am
Dear Mr. Arun,
Thanks for your write-up. I am not a telegu person but have telegu speaking family friends and hence have listened to a lot of Ghantasala as well as other southern singers. Mr. Venkatadri is correct, its the majority of musicians who regard Rafi saab as the ultimate and not just hindi MD’s. You mentioned voices, Rafi’s voice was the ultimate combination of sharpness, sweetness, melody, softness, and much more which made him unique. Ghantasala did not attempt as much genres as Rafi did, let alone have his versatility, which is why we can’t compare the two. As far as high pitch is concerned, I don’t think anyone can match Rafi in this regard, he could venture out into territories that no other singer could reach. You cannot compare anyone to Rafi, he is on a different level. This in no way takes anything away from Ghantasala, who was an exceptional singer in his own right.
December 22nd, 2007 at 10:56 pm
venkatadri ji,
i do not dispute your facts. But again it is not clear. You have stated correctly that there are 3 octaves and the ni in the lower octave and re in the higher octave etc. that is right. As i understand from mr. khan’s message, the ni in the siva sankari song is the highest in the final i.e. 3rd octave beyond which only sa is there as you yourself have stated. thus, again i am not clear how zindabad song can be composed 2 to 3 notes higher than this as stated in your earlier messages. i hope you understand my points.
December 22nd, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Mr. “Arun”,
There is one thing I forgot to enligten you on earlier. As you seem to be aware, music has 7 basic notes, Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Da, Ne. A group of these 7+1 (ie by adding the succeeding Sa also) notes is called an Octave. But, out of your ignorance, you are thinking there can be only one Octave. No, there can be successive octaves which go from a very low sacle to the highest scale. Theoritically, the low can be at infinity and the high can be at the opposite infinity. It is somewhat like this:
—SaregamapadaneSaregamapadaneSaregamapdaneSa—– (3 successive octaves mentioned)
Going lower and lower in scale is also as tough as going higher and higher in scale! It depends on the greatness of the singer and his voice as to the range of how many octaves he can handle!
So, you and your friend, Khan, are displaying not only your ignorance of the songs of Rafi Saab and Ghantasala, but also ignorance of basic knowledge of music when you say ‘ne’ is at a higher scale than ‘da’. It depends on which octave. The ‘re’ in second octave is much higher (2 notes higher) than the ‘ne’ in the first octave!
Venkatadri
December 22nd, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Mr. Arun,
I hope you are not the new incarnation of some disappearing participant!
Firstly, while whether Rafi Saab is superior to Ghantasala would in no way hinge upon the high-pitch capabilities alone, it is an absolute truth that Rafi Saab had recorded at higher pitches than Ghantasala did, in many songs, including “Zindabad, Zindabad”.
Secondly, you are totally off the mark when you said that Rafi Saab was praised by Bollywood and Ghantasala was praised by South. Nothing is farther from truth! Rafi Saab was praised and rated as the greatest not only by Hindi MDs and singers, but also by the most prominent Southern Mds and singers such as Jesudas, SPB and Ilayaraja. In contrast, while no Hindi MD/singer ever mentions Ghantasala, even the southern bigwigs praise him just as a great singer and not as no. 1 in Film Music.
How naive and innocent you are! In Ghantasala’s stamp function, whom else will they praise, but Ghantasala! On the contrary, SPB, Ravi, etc. keep remembering Rafi Saab in glowing superlatives without any apparent context
Lastly, you rightly said that for proper comparison one needs good knowledge of their songs. So, why don’t you answer the three questions in my earlier posts no.s 646 and 647?
Friend, celebrities praise all great singers, but the utmost passion in those praising comments is reserved by them only for Rafi Saab!
Venkatadri
December 21st, 2007 at 10:55 pm
dear myk - post 649 and 650 please
We appreciate your knowledge by quoting illayaraja. Let me draw your kind attention to the great column in the hindu dt. feb. 11, 2003, a legend and colossus ghantasala venkateshwara rao being honoured by releasing a stamp in his favour. in the same article, i refer to the words of illayaraja please. illayaraja has quoted that he was once asked to compose songs for a film wherein all would be hit and illayaraja then stated that ghantasala is the only singer who can guarantee that all the songs are hit in a film without fail and nobody else can. such is his talent. What do you say about this ? i feel this does not contradict illayaraja’s views about rafi sahab. i do not know whether you are a telugu person or not. a person with a telugu film knowledge plus music knowledge alone can understand the edge of ghantasala over other singers. and what about spb’s observations as some readers have pointed here about ghantasala. I want to state that all the successive singers have great respect for the two great legends. If hindi music directors and singers have praised rafi sahab as great, the southern languages music directors and singers have also praised ghantasala as equally great.
I agree with one reader mr. narayanan’s views that both legends cannot be compared but are incomparable in their own fields. if one is the north pole, then another is the south pole. You cannot say which is great. As one mr. khan observes, rafi sahab’s voice is silky and soft and ghantsala’s voice is sharp and majestic. Both have their own beauties and hence equally great. even if you want to compare you have to select the same songs such as chal ud ja re panchi which was sung by ghantasala subsequently and wherein both the singers have equally excelled.
My opinion is that Rafi sahab’s voice is very great. Ghantasala’s voice is also very special and great. No other singers can come near to these two singers.
Mr. venkatadri sahab, i am not able to catch your meaning clearly could you pl. clarify. you are saying the song siva sankari is 2 to 3 notes below composed as compared to rafi sahab’s zindabaad song. But i understand from other messages that the high note in telugu siva sankari is top ni note after which only one note sa (top range) is left and no other note is left in music. then how can the hindi song be composed 2 to 3 notes higher when no notes are left. I think you should revisit mr.khan’s observation because i am not able to get clarity on your point please.