True Voice - Mohd Rafi
The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html
I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.
I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.
I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.
Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.
Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.
During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.
In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.
Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69″ to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).
In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.
Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).
To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.
Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.
There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.
Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.
Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.
One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.
Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.
Variety is amazing :
songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay
Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.
Swami
December 21st, 2007 at 11:32 am
Btw, that was just a sample of three of the songs from Laila Majnu. Rafi shines in the whole album, Jaidev completed the score once MM passed away. This was the starting of the Rafi-Rishi Kapoor combo that would produce hit after hit until Rafi’s passing away in July 1980.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:28 am
I don’t think there should be a debate vis a vis Ghantasala and Rafi. There is absolutely no comparison. Rafi was and will remain the benchmark. Besides the great southern musicians, singers etc. who have all acknowledged Rafi as the greatest, how about one of the greatest music directors of all time Illayaraaja who is a genius MD, who has invented a few carnatic raga’s himself, who has conducted quite a few symphonies outside of India, who is a master in carnatic music, and who has proven that he is very versatile and one of the all time greats, a musician who even the great Naushad praised. In response to a question asking which singers are his favourite, look at his response:
Q: ungaLai kavarndha paadagar yaar? (who are your favourite singers ?)
IR: Rafi, Jesudhoss, Balu endraalum “Rafi” Rafithaan (Rafi, Yesudas, Balu, Still Rafi is Rafi !!)
I think that should say it all, and P. Haldar is right, people from various regions compare their favourites to Rafi as he is the benchmark.
Forget about all other genres, romantic, pathos, qawwali’s, bhajans, ghazals, pop/western songs and so forth, there is no match to Rafi. He had the voice for all genres, and the range to fit them all and more, that Ghantasala or any other singer does not come even close. Rafi can match and surprass the experts of any of those above mentioned genres and more with his songs, such were his abilities. Now leaving aside those other genres, the discussion has been about classical abilities. Both Rafi and Ghantasala (and other greats like Yesudas, Lata, Manna) were all trained in classical music. Rafi although he had training, did not receive as much as the others, and it was most of his natural talent that made him the best (as Manna has said in his interviews). We can say that they all had classical background. Now in films, composers never created hardcore classical songs (films songs were never meant for such numbers), it was always semi-classical, and our singers rendered them with great ease. Our singers were playback singers with classical background, and it is unfair to compare them to classical specialists who mastered that art, yet our singers were capable of delivering deep rooted classical flavoured songs, something similar to which classical experts rendered, covering all the aspects of the raags. This maybe was not as hardcore as what classical specialists were singing (ofcourse because that was not what our legendary singers specialized in), but it was very challenging and required a singer with the capapbilities of a classical singer to render such songs, and these songs were from classical masters such as Naushad, Madan Mohan, S-J and so forth.
On the other hand, try telling a classical specialist to replicate what a playback singer has done and they will fail.
Agreed Ghantasala was excellent in semi-classical numbers but that does not make him superior to Rafi in this aspect. Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the classical guru always considered Rafi to be the best exponent of classical songs. Rafi could always go deep into the essence of a classical song, which made his classical numbers stand out even amongst the ones sung by Manna Dey. To top it all off, Rafi had such a range that he could master classical songs without a lot of training. I would like to point out one album in 1976 where Rafi showed a lot of his skills and that is Laila Majnu composed by Madan Mohan and Jaidev. A sample of the songs:
Likhar Tera Naam Zamin Par: range, sur, taal, ability to switch between notes with ease, what a masterpiece of a song, and look at the final alaap, there is no singer north, south, east or west who could have performed an alaap as high as that. Lata is there in the song as well and she had to match Rafi’s range in that song. I would like Ghantasala fans to point out one song similar to this one. For those who haven’t heard it, here is the link (this is the movie version which has been cut):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY0w5jWxdB0&feature=related
Yeh Deewane Ki Zid Hai: showing excellent breath control, this song is in the qawwali mould:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhiFH-pOKNs&feature=related
Barbaad-e-Mohabbat: again range, sur, taal, all rolled into one, another MM gem which only Rafi could have sung:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JZAXyeKLcc
I believe the first two were composed by Jaidev and the third by MM. The rest of the album is excellent as well.
Also, I would like to point out one thing abt Kishore which I have read a lot of times on the net. Even if KK had training in classical music, he would not have reached the heights Rafi reached or be even half as talented as Rafi. At the end of the day it comes down to natural talent, and this is why you hardly see anyone including Kishore in discussions when it comes to overall music (north, south, east and west), its only those people who hype him up to such an extent that its funny. Mind you, I like Kishore the singer, but there is absolutely no comparison with him to Rafi.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Reg Post No. 644 of Binu Nair Ji.
Binu Nair Ji,
I have not missed to notice the ‘dig’ in your post on my ‘”second best singer” stuff.
But truly, Binu Ji, as one who knows HFM (not only of Rafi Saab but of other male and female singers) reasonably well and also Telugu music (again of all singers including Ghantasala), I can say that Ghantasala definitely has an edge over other Hindi singers such as Mukesh, Talat, Manna Dey, etc.
I always am fond of saying that the best Rafi songs need to be heard through your heart and not just by your ears! Rafi Saab has hundreds of songs of this category. Now, even Ghantasala has a few like those, which appeal to your heart. For instance, “Paluka Raadate Chiluka” from Film:Shavukaru during the fifties.
If you thought I said “the second best singer” bit as a matter of tactic, that is not true.
Venkat
December 18th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Mr.Khan,
A few clarifications to you on the Three-Question Quiz.
If you think mentioning the entire Mukhda and the entire First Antara in each of the answers will be too long and not fair on you, you can just mention the song’s title, Movie name and give some description of the song such as which part you like most, what musical instruments were used, whether the song starts straight or after an initial Aalaap, etc. This way, I will also be able to preclude any compilation by you from the net sources without having ever heard the songs!
Incidentally, the answers I have in mind are excellent, but somewhat lesser-known songs of Rafi Saab, the likes of which Ghantasala , though great, cannot boast of!
Lastly, in the Question no. 3 regarding identically tuned (both in Mukhda and Antara) pairs of Rafi Songs, I mean pairs wherein both are Hindi songs. I do not mean a pair wherein one song is Hindi one and another a Telugu one (for instance). Such inter-language pairs are well-known and easy to name, such as “Baar Baar Dekho” from China Town(hindi) and “Yentha vaaru Gaani” from Bhale Tammudu (Telugu)!
Happy answering!
Venkat
December 18th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Mr.Khan,
Time has come indeed to call your bluff, fair and square!
You are frivolously comparing these two greats without knowing even a handful of their songs! Can you answer the following?
1.Name 15 solos that you like (if at all you know, that is!) of Rafi Saab under the Composition of Chitragupta, other than “Jaag Dil-e-Deewana” from Oonche Log and “Chal Ud Jaa Re Panchhi” from Bhabhi. You need to mention the entire Mukhda and the entire First Antara of each of the 15!
2. Name 5 songs that you know/like of Rafi Saab under Iqbal Qureshi, other than from Films, “Cha Cha Cha”, “Qawali Ki Raat” and “Love In Simla”. Again, the whole Mukhdas and the whole First Antaras.
3. Name at least 3 pairs of songs sung by Rafi Saab in his career wherein the two songs in each pair are almost identical in tune both in Mukhada and the Antara. Again the entire Mukhdas and the entire first Antaras need to be named. Also the MDs for each of those Films!
Venkatadri
December 18th, 2007 at 10:41 am
Mr. Khan,
Your agenda is already suspect. I am not laughing at your musical ignorance/mischievousness, but am dismissing both with contempt. You and your knowledge of Sur’s and Scales! The words, “Woh Patthar Hai, Insaan Kahan” in the song, “Zindabad, Zindabad” are at the highest possible (possible only for Rafi Saab) scale anywhere in music. Naushad saab had mentioned this too many a time.
On the contrary, the high pitch that comes in “Sivasankari” is a full 2 to 3 notes below the high pitch in “Zindabad, Zindabad”.
Finally, Mr.Khan, unfortunately God has not given you a native, tasteful ear for Music, but has only given you a few words of half-baked knowledge, such as ‘Kalayan’ ,’darbari kannad’ ,etc.
Keep trying!
Venkat
December 16th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Personal likes and ‘phobias’ about their favourite singers should
not find a place in these lines.
This is a mohd rafi site and please do not break conventions by
your frog in the well attitude and please desist from comparing
mohd rafi saab - for his is infinitely incomparable.
pl. open a website of your favourite ’singers’ is a plea. more,
you will in no time know the popularity of your favourite singer.
if this does not stop i will declare that my neighbour who sings
great classical numbers is the ’second’ best singer in the universe
after our legend mohd rafi.
binu nair.. mumbai…..
December 16th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Venkatadri sahab, your post 639 please
You are deviating yourselves. Anyhow I feel only short of laughing at your presentation. The song which you quoted from mughal e azam is comparatively in lesser pitch than the shiva shankari song by the telugu singer. You can enquire this from any learned musician. I do not want to waste my time to quote this. Coming next, i have heard the song madi sarada devi mandirame in you tube.com on internet and the same is from telugu film jayabheri and which is composed in pure yaman rag (kalyan rag of telugu). A very excellent rendering by ghantasala sahab (the voice is quite majestic - i also observed two other voices in the song which are also good) but the song is in a comparatively lesser pitch (the maximum note is ga in the upper range - whereas it is ni in shiva shankari song pl.) I again repeat that i feel only short of laughing at your knowledge of music. I do not know about your knowledge regarding music and if you do not know music kindly do not quote comments regarding pitches and surs please.
December 16th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
hussen sheikh ji - post 638
Could you please tell me which of the ghantasala garu songs you have heard. Have you heard the live songs posted in 608 and 616 messages pl. if not, my kind request kindly hear them fully and respond with your views.
thanks, murthy
December 16th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
DEAR MUSIC LOVERS,
I THINK WE ARE WASTING OUR TIME IN COMPARING TWO LEGENDS.
PL COMPARE THEM ONLY IF GHANTSALA GARU HAS SUNG 100 HINDI FILM SONGS AND RAFI SAHAB 100 TELUGU FILM SONGS.
OTHERWISE THE WHOLE STORY IS ILLOGICAL AND SHEER WASTE.
HOW CAN U TAKE STRAY CARNATIC OR HINDUSTANI OR BHAGAVATH GEETHA OR MYTHOLOGICAL OR BHAJANS…
I FEEL VASUJI SASTRIJI AND FEW FRIENDS HAVE TO THEMSELVES WIND UP THE RAGING DEBATE.. THIS SEEMS ENDLESS WASTE OF ALL OPINIONS.
PL COMPARE A HINDUSTANI EXPONENT TO HINDUSTANI SAY BHIMSENHOSHI TO PANDIT JASRAJ AND NOT BHIMSENJOSHI TO BALAMURLI GARU.
DO WE HAVE ATLEAST 100 SONGS LIKE I MENTIONED IN THE FIRST.. LEAVE ALONE A WHOLE CAREER…
THANKS
NARAYAN
December 16th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Oh my Lord, these comparisons never stop. How much longer will we compare apples to oranges. One informed gentleman here says Rafi sahab is a leading exponent of Hindustani classicals. With my limited knowledge I dare say he is not, his classical base is only functional (a fact emphasised by Manna Dey and scores of other musicians). He is actually God’s own creation sent to this world (to thrill common folks like me) with a voice bordering on perfection, a smooth and flowing style that keeps one wondering how anyone can sing like this, not to mention scores of other qualities pointed out by learned gentlemen here. The fact that he’s attempted and actually sung (quite well, too) some heavy classical stuff is a proof of his huge natural gift than anything else. The singer who’s been compared to him these days is a well-trained Carnatic music exponent, may be one of the better ones (I’m not too sure, being a just a music- lover and not an expert), who happened to excel in play-back singing too. At this rate, I’m pretty certain that the next point of comparison will be Dr.Balamurly Krishna himself.
One gentleman was referring to Yesu das sir’s comments on Ghantasala jee. Let me inform you that being a Keralite, I’ve been fortunate to attend several concerts of Yesu Das sir and have listened to and read several interviews of this great singer. As I’ve mentioned before, whenever he speaks about Rafi sahab (which he does quite often), he just stops short of declaring that Rafi sir is the almighty himself. Try this one for size- “when I started my musical journey my destination was Mohd. Rafi sahab. Looking back, I have reasons to feel satisfied for I feel I’ve covered some distance”. This was not in response to a question on Rafi sahab, rather the remark was made in connection to Das sir reaching his 60 and the question was how he feels when he looks back at his career.
December 16th, 2007 at 7:38 am
Mr.Khan,
The problem is simply this. According to your own admissions, you seem to know only one song (!) of Ghantasala (ie. Sivasankari). You admitted (in post no. 628) that you do not even know “Madi Sarada Devi Mandirame” and “Pushpavilapam”, which are quite well-known in the context of Ghantasala and not his rare songs.
Now, you still have not thrown any light on your knowledge (or the lack of it) of Rafi Saab’s songs. So, I do not know how knowledgeable you are even on Rafi Saab’s songs.
But, considering that your knowledge of Ghantasala songs is little or negligible, don’t you think that you are ineligible to even participate in a disussion of this sort!
Now, coming to the high pitch that you talk of in the lone Sivasankari song that you know, let me tell you that Ghantasala Mastaru can carry very high pitches with comfort, but again Rafi Saab is the crowned Emperor even in this. His line in the third Antara of “Zindabad, Zindabad, Ae Muhabbat Zindabad” from Mughal-e-Azam is the ultimate in high pitch renditions anywhere in world music. The line goes thus: “Woh Pathhar Hai Insaan Kahan, Aa Aa Aa Aa” When genuine music lovers listen to some of Rafi Saab’s high pitch songs, their hairs literally rise and theirs souls really stir!
Hope you would understand the spirit of this post.
Venkat
December 16th, 2007 at 2:45 am
I heard ghantasala recently, but sorry friends, he’s far behind to Rafi Saheb.
December 16th, 2007 at 12:42 am
mr. cherian, post 626 describes the harmonics axis I had mentioned before. If you pluck a guitar string, the natural or base frequency is called the fundamental frequency. In addition to the fundamental frequency, the sound waves consist of harmonics (what sur calls overtones), whose frequencies are multiples of the fundamental frequency. So you have second, third, … harmonics. The fundamental frequency is also called the first harmonic.
A good singer knows how to modulate his or her voice. There are two types of modulation: amplitude and frequency. In amplitude modulation, you vary the volume. In frequency modulation, you vary the frequency. Here’s an example where rafi saab and asha ji illustrate voice modulation; pay close attention to the last stanza:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JyYSK3BIOA8
December 15th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Mr. venkatadri garu and other friends,
I deeply reciprocate your feelings about great rafi sahab and his achievements and also appreciations about ghantasala garu (venkatadri garu is a telugu personality and i agree with his views about ghantasala garu but i feel he has covered only some points which ordinary people generally know and his interpretation does not extend to the musical skills and classical presentation by both the singers) i have repeatedly in my many messages written so many times that both rafi and ghantasala are two eyes of indian music. (if one eye is not there, will you call the body a perfect one) one is the hindusthani legend and the other is carnatic legend. Rafi sahab has been a leading light to all the then and also succesive bollywood singers. on the same lines, in the south ghantasala garu has been a leading light to all the southern singers and that continues.
Incidentally, some readers are often quoting that many hindi music directors often declared rafi sahab as great. who said no, i do not understand. did anybody disagree to it. incidentally in post 613 by one swamy ji, i have read that shankar (jai kishan), the famous hinid music director has praised ghantasala garu akin to rafi sahab and also lata mangeshkar ji has done it. In fact, in project ghantasala website, I have recently seen a letter written by lata mangeshkar to sri ghantasala garu acknowledging his greatness as a great carnatic musician. What are all these things my dear readers, do you say that no body praised ghantasala garu. certainly not please. Incidentally, i too have seen in k j yesudas website wherein k j yesudas has stated that it is ghantasala sahab, who has given a turning point to the south indian music and all are following the ways he showed to people. does this mean shankar, lata mangeshkar, k j yesudas who have praised ghantasala garu are not musicians or what accprding to many readers here.
Next coming to sri khan sahab’s interpretation, the same extends to description only at the music level and raga skills interpretation and not certainly beyond that. He is viewing both the singers as a music teacher and not with any other intention. I fully agree with him that in terms of classical music skill and presentation, ghantasala sahab has a definite edge over rafi sahab. For a true musician, the voice does not matter, but the rag and proper presentation of the musical skills matters. (in music concerts importance is given to rag and presentation at musical level, but not to voice please.) Accordingly, sri khan sahab has interpreted ghantasala sahab’s songs and my request is out of ignorance pl. do not try to point a finger at a reputed musician, because ordinary people cannot understand about musical technicalities.
December 15th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
venkatadri sahab - your post 633 and 634 please
Pl. do not misunderstand venkatadri sahab, never I have said in my messages rafi is a inferior singer or underestimated him. it is your interpretation. You have not read my analysis properly. I have stated clearly in many places that rafi is at his usual best. But one thing is certain the depth in classical music is more strong in the voice of ghantasala sahab than rafi sahab. My analysis is as opined by some readers here rafi sahab’s voice is silky and soft but not sharp and majestic, similarly ghantasala sahab’s voice is sharp and majestic and not otherwise. Both types are two different corners and are equally great. But i again repeat the depth in classical music and the skills presentation therein is more strong in the voice of ghantasala sahab than rafi sahab. I do not know your knowledge about music. But whatever people may think, this is truth. You can ask any musician in the entire world about this fact and if you prove that my words are incorrect through a reputed musician, I promise that i will permanently leave music. i have nothing more to add.
December 15th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Mr. Khan,
In continuation of my earlier post no.633 and as an after-thought, I want to say that it may be that you have your own agenda that is quite frequently seen around in this site. No matter how little you know of Ghantasala songs, you start eulogising him as a great singer and try to put down the Badshah of this website, Rafi Saab! But, fortunately for this site and unfortunately for them, all such agenda-pushers are easily seen through here!
I sincerely hope you are not one of those!
Venkat
December 15th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Mr. Khan,
My considered answer to your query addressed to me in your post no.628 is once again simply my post no.627! You need to read it carefully as it is entirely meant for you.
By the way, are you a Telugu-speaking Khan? Or, is Khan just your web-name? I find it difficult to believe that if you are actually a non-Telugu speaking Khan, you would take such a stubborn interest in Ghantasala, that too based on such a meagre knowledge of his songs!
Venkat
December 15th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
How can anybody compare Rafi with any singer? Rafi is genious. That is all to it. Seriously do you think Ghantasala’s voice can be used on bollywood heroes? No offense but I find his voice a big turnoff. One or two songs max. I am sure he has good control over music.. but his voice lacks most of the structure that is needed for something like playback on a hero. BalaMurali Krishna is also good.. but can you accept him as voice for lets say Dharmendra?
December 15th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Ref: Post 626 and 627.
Great pieces of information, gentlemen.
Venkat Sir, It seems, like Haldar sir, you don’t think too highly of Rafi sahab’s voice/ singing as well as the songs of 70s. However, personally I like many songs of the 70s (may be because I grew up listening to them) and also feel he is at his melodious best in many of them. I don’t mean to say that these are better or even comparable to his gems in the earlier decades, just that they are also worth mentioning when we speak of Rafi sahab and his songs.
I hope your parable of elephants will put to an end this on-going comparisons and assorted exchanges. Also hope someone will not compare Rafi sahab with Dr. Balamurly Krishna or Pandit Bhimsen Joshi.
Sur Sir, great to find an analysis of Rafi sahab’s voice from a sound engineer’s perspective. May I request you to elaborate it a bit, like explaining what exactly is fundemental and over tone frequencies. Is this combo something akin to what I was trying to say in previous posts (heavy base & smooth top)? Thank you.
December 15th, 2007 at 3:46 am
yep, that is what i was about to say. rafi sahab had the advantage of many, brilliant md’s backing him that ghantasala did not. shankar jaikishan, ravi, naushad, op nayar, laxmikant pyarelal, roshan, kalyanji anandji, sd burman, the list goes on and on…
December 14th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
ref post 626
sur jee,
you are absolutely correct in your analysis about rafi sahab’s voice.
he used to adjust himself as per the performer on the screen. in one of the interviews joy mukherjee told before going for the recording rafi sahab used to ask the music director that who is the actor for whom he is going to sing & then modulate his voice to suit the screen personality. its a rare talent.
as all of us know melody means rafi sahab and rafi sahab means melody.
in one of the recent programmes ‘ jhummandi naadam ‘ in telugu, the playback singer mrs p.susheela garu was praised much by the compere for her melodious voice but she declined it and gave all credits to rafi sahab as the ‘ master of melody’
December 14th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
p haldar sahab, your post 621 pl.
I do not know which darbari compostion you are referring to by Manna dey sahab in mere huzoor(i have heard his song jhanak jhanak). Comparing manna dey sahab with ghantasala sahab’s shiva shankari song in 608 is like comparison between a cat and a tiger (both belong to same generic species) If you do not mind, may I know your background pl. I inform that during my 35 plus years hindusthani music experience and around 250 plus hindusthani concerts, I have not seen anybody rendering the darbari kannad rag in such perfection as ghantasala sahab did in post 608 (especially his range, clarity and melody in top ni note in the song, where it is very very difficult to sing) . I request you to kindly enlighten me of a single compostion in the entire bollywood and of rafi sahab, where it is composed in the high ni note please.
You talk of high pitches, but kindly give confirmation to give effect to your point by providing reply to my question (duniya ke rakhwale song is flowing in hindusthani style , if you read my post 611, i have stated that ghantasala sahab has without sacrificing his carnatic style, created a hindustani sensation, pl. carefully read the same and get back - did rafi sahab has that versatile sensation - you have to enlighten me pl. ) my request is pl. carefully listen to the darbari kannad compostion in post 608 along with my analysis in 611 post and then kindly give your views. I feel you have not properly heard post 608 song properly. Your interpretation of manna dey sahab song as similar to shiva shankari song is incorrect pl. There is no similarity in both the songs.
Mr. Venkatadri sahab, post 627 pl.
I do not know about madi sarada devi mandirame and pushpa vilapam songs, but could you pl. enlighten me whether the same have compositions in the top high pitch akin to shiva shankari song. ( I feel it may be because ghantasala sahab is quite capable for that state of rendering)
vasu sahab, post 618 pl.
My greetings to my fellow carnatic musician like you. i have carefully read your post 460, and i confirm your views endorsed therein as ghantasala sahab scores in narrow range over rafi sahab, Not only I and you but i feel every experienced musician shall say this ( I am confirming my comparison basing only the 4 songs of ghantasala sahab which i heard here wherein almost all are rare and exclusive compositions and on basis of my experience i could make out ghantasala sahab’s range and talent pl.) and already a carnatic musician has confirmed this fact. Not only vasu sahab, but ramakrishna sahab, who is also a musician, as i understand has confirmed the greatness of ghantasala sahab. ( as i read in some of the earlier messages, even balamuralikrishan guruji, the great carnatic incomparable legend and lata mangeshkar ji, the nightingale of india have stated ghantasala sahab’s voice to be incomparable - i do not know)
what do you say haldar sahab?
December 14th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Friends,
As I always said, Ghantasala is another divine singer like Rafi Saab, but did not get his due in terms of publicity, etc. But, I also always said that Ghantasala is my second best singer out of all male and female singers, after Rafi Saab who is my Monarch of singing!
Now, even at the expense of sounding immodest, let me say that I heard and enjoyed almost all of Ghantasala’s songs since my childhood, even his innumerable Private songs and also his many rare and lesser-heard gems.
Of course, as far as Rafi Saab is concerned, I know, heard and enjoyed almost all his songs (even the rarest ones) that he sang until 1970. (Mind you, I have no time, nor interest in Film Music after 1970, be it Hindi or Telugu and for damn good reason!)
Now, coming to the point, many comparisons are taking place here, but in unscientific and somewhat irrational way! If some people pardon me, the comparisons here are akin to a blind man comparing two elephants and concluding profoundly that one of the elephants’ diameter is a couple of centimeters more than that of the other! Because the blind man could feel only the two trunks, thought that an elephant is nothing but a trunk and found one ‘elephant’ (actually only the trunk) has a higher diameter!
Much the same way, some people are making out as if “Siva Sankari Sivananda Lahari” is the song for which Ghantasala is a greater singer. The fact is that he has much better renditions such as “Madi Sarada Devi Mandirame”, “Pushpa Vilapam”, etc. to talk of.
Next, when one compares two singers, one takes into account all kinds of songs, classical, semi-classical, romantic, light, sombre, etc. Not just one genre of songs such as “Sivasankari”. It is a different point that even on that just one type of songs, Rafi Saab has many classics such as “Madhuban Me Radhika”, “Man Mora Bawra”, “Baat Chalt Nayi Chunari Rang Daali” and many more.
But, as someone too was mentioning earlier, Ghantasala scores much less compared to Rafi Saab in versatility, what with Rafi Saab’s classical, semi-classical, romantic, comedy, children’s, ghazals, patriotic, qawali, stylish/modern, melancholy, etc. Mind you, Ghantasala too is quite versatile in absolute terms, but not anywhere near the stupendous versatility of Rafi Saab. Besides, in the area of voice modulation and voice variation too, Rafi Saab is ahead of Ghantasala, who too incidentally is quite an expert in these.
Finally, in fairness to Ghantasala, I need to say one other thing. Ghantasala ws not as fortunate as Rafi Saab to have had such great Composers/MDs to sing for. Again, while Telugu MDs of those days were also great, their Hindi counterparts were much ahead of them in talent.
Next, for God’s sake, please do not ever mention Rafi Saab’s Telugu songs for comparison as he had sung them with great reluctance and that too during a period when his voice had already started to lose its sheen (around 1969/70).
Lastly, comparison of two greats such as Ghantasala and Rafi Saab has to be based on the sum-total of the career and all the songs of each of them. Not by highlighting a song or two in isolation.
Venkatadri
December 14th, 2007 at 1:17 am
In my view and knowing a few things about sound engineering i can say that Rafisaab’s voice had excellent balance of fundamental & overtone frequencies. When most of us (which includes many singers great and modest alike) sing, fundamental frequencies weigh over the ovetones. It is a well known fact in sound engineering that fundamental frequencies sound dull. Rafi’s voice was heavily laden with overtone frequenceis with a very strong fundamental - An extremely rare combination. That’s the reason even at very high pitch he never sounded thin or tinny and in lower registers his voice could retain all the shine and luster due to presence higher frequency overtones. But was it all God’s gift ? Of course not. The biggest aspect that sets him apart from other singers is his creativity and superior sensitivity to lyrics, melody and mood of the song.