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True Voice – Mohd Rafi

The following article was brought to my notice when Sharad posted it on MAS. The article has been trimmed down a bit keeping afloat Rafi details. However, anyone interested can go visit the source at http://tfmpage.com/forum/4980.6302.04.57.19.html

I am Swaminatha Iyer and I am 78 years old. I hail from Tiruchi and I am a part of music associations in Tiruchi, M’as as well as in West Bengal and Maharashtra.

I think it is wrong to condemn music or artists on either side of Vindhyas. Our Indian music is one of the few which has not been cleaned off by the western music though there has always been a influence. It speaks a lot of the richness of our music. Sometime back director of MTV had said that MTV westernized the music wherever it went but in India , MTV had to be Indianized for it to be accepted. A lot of this credit goes to the Indian film music.

I have been fortunate to have close personal association with Rafi, Sirkali, TMS, Dr. BMK, Kishore, SPB & KJY, PS, Mannadey and the one and only Lata Mangeshkar.

Comparisons are bound to come, but almost every artist or I have met considers Lata to be beyond comparison. Her talents are beyond anyone’s reach. Even Sirkazi used to talk of her singing like a die-hard fan as do countless others.

Now coming to the Rafi-SPB discussion. It might be difficult to convince an South Indian to believe Rafi is the better and at the same time Rafi crowd will never believe any other male singer comes anywhere nearer. There is one more mobile crowd, which is well conversant with Hindi and some south Indian language. Majority of them tilt to either Rafi or Kishore.

During one of my stays in M’as I had stayed with SPB. While talking of true voices he said, I don’t feel like half a singer when listening to Rafi. True voice is not a tech term but many in circle use it. Perfect example would be lata, but to understand consider our own PS who within her range is superb. People who do not have such true voices can never do justice to original. They generally underplay many parts of the song or fake it with bass/superficial singing. True voices make people like Sirkazi, Nusrat Fateh Ali khan, Lata… Inimitable. However since Sirkazi and Nusrat did not have the filmy voices their “real” following is limited to their local arena.

In addition to the true voice if the singer has a very good voice then in “most” cases he/she can better songs of others. It is this combination which makes Rafi stand out among the other male singers. There are many here who seem to have mistaken notions on a good bass and also on high pitch.

Bryan Adams does not require a monster bass in “Summer of 69” to sound real manly. It is the punch which gives that feel and that is decided only by the comfort level in most ranges (that is by what your throat can support). This you CAN never disguise with bass. Since people have talked about lack of manly voice viz. a viz. Rafi it was necessary to bring this point out. I have had the fortune of listening to most singers in studio and some times without a mike, practicing with MD’s.When Lata or Rafi do, the level is so high that people hesitate to even hum. It felt silly to sing in their presence (and it feels silly when someone says his voice isn’t manly).

In RD’s tribute when SPB sang “Aaja Aaja mein hoon” or “Chaand mera dil” it sounded only sweet and lacked punch if you compare with Rafi’s original.

Yesu once told me God has been partial to Rafi. He said “god gift term anavasyamaa romba common aa ippo use aardu”.. but idu Rafi kee thaan 100% porundu”. This person could sing “as intricately as a lady without sounding thin”, “cover any mood”, “versatility odey perfect example Rafi”. Yesu said most important is the comfort level over ranges which makes you feel God has been partial to Rafi. (But Of course in Rafi’s early career (1950’s) the voice was relatively feeble).

To people exposed to Rafi’s talent, these or any amount of praise can only seem less. I just wish he was alive and you people could get a live chance to hear him. Probably you can get hold of the DD album for the Geet Gaata Chal series where the first four episodes were dedicated to Rafi. Rafi is on camera singing “O Duniya Ke Rakwaaley” and many other songs. If you see and hear the last part you will realize why SPB said “impossible”. I think particularly those people who have talked about scales w.r.t Rafi should see this album. Its a known fact in industry that Rafi ruled high pitch and there is no male singer better in switching notes so easily. There are artists who can go beyond but then they sound strained or they don’t have pleasant voices when they venture into those territories.

Many singers of today are his compulsive followers. But they end up inheriting only part of his quality. Md. Aziz ended up with a sad voice. Mahendra Kapoor with a thick nasal voice. Anwar with a nasal voice. Sonu Nigam with a feminine voice. Rafi neither had a soft voice nor a heavy (bass) voice he had a good voice. Importantly did not strain at high notes, and voice if at all only became better at higher notes. If you see him singing it will remind you of Janaki. However diff the song is or the note is he will be smiling and singing. It is unthinkable that he cannot sing something.

There seems to be lot of talk about “Shankara Bharanamo” song. SPB has sung many a great numbers and things being said about this song in this forum are rather amusing, particularly b’cos 3 out of 4 people who can be called as singers will be able sing it and at least one out of 10 will sing it with the same effect. There are lot of other songs of SPB where this great singer has played with songs in total control. You will find most south Indian singers who have had a good exposure say that it is beneficial to learn Hindustani as it gives better breath control and improves expression.

Rafi was not only able to glide over a song, the important thing was that he could express each word/sound when singing. It is one thing to hold your breath, start and reach a crescendo (high note), as like in “Shankara”, “Anbey (Yennai kaan villaye)” it is different ballgame if you have to do it from low notes or suddenly switch notes. With practice the former can be done, latter requires a special gift. Rafi had a natural ability to do the latter. In “Tum joh mil gaye ho” there is such a transition in the “karwaan mil gaya” part. I have never seen anyone do justice to most of his songs in my life time. In “parda hai parda” quawaali the similar part is “kar doon to, Akbar mera naam”. In fact most of his songs will have these specialty as it was his natural ability to sing freely in a wide range at the same time giving that extra expression.

Whereas SPB takes us to heavens with “Idu oru pon maali”,”Ilaya nila” “bisiladarenu”(kannada), when he sings Rafi’s song it lacks the punch or expression, though it has the bass. But at least most agree that SPB does some justice to original, whereas most others murder the original.

One trivial point I would like to add is that singing in Hindi is harder. There are more “JHA”,”CHA”,”HA”,”THA”, “KHA”,”JA”,”FA”. These take away the breath faster. The more expressive you are the more air you are using up. Just singing from Nabhi will not help, your throat also needs to do a lot, for singing in Hindi, Bengali etc. SPB makes you fall in love with his south Indian songs but same cannot be said about his Hindi songs. If you just glide through words having these sounds, you will never be expressive. Doing this as well as reaching high notes is not easy. Rafi had this gift and that’s why it is difficult to imagine anyone else in his shoes. Song “Chalkaaye jaam” has so much expression that it is unthinkable how anyone can sing it. When Rafi switches to a high note with “Mitwaa” in the song “Chaahunga mein tughey” you cannot replicate it with bass. Most others will sound as if they are shouting in such cases. That man’s throat had the ability to freely sing at such levels.

Versatility is not just the ability to sing in various styles, more important is how good you are singing in those styles. You have lot of Ghazal singers today but when Rafi sings a Ghazal you will sit up and take notice. You don’t have to be part of the Ghazal listeners crowd. This is one important aspect. Whatever style you sing you should be able to pull the common man to listen and not just a particular crowd. Pick “parda hai parda” or any qawalli and it will stand tall among other qawalli’s.

Variety is amazing :

songs of Guru Dutt’s Khagaz key phool or songs like abhi naa jao chod key, Aaja teri yaad aayi, Aaj kal mein dhal gaya, Aaj kal terey merey pyaar, Aasmaan sey aaya farishta, Dil ney pyaar kiya hai, Deewana mujh saa nahi, Din dhal jaaye, Duniya paagal hai, Jaane walon jara, Dil joh na kaha saka, Dil key jharokon mein, Dil kaa bhavar, Chalkey teri aakkhon sey, Kar chaley hum fida, khilona jaan kar tum, Woh jab yaad aay, Woh hain jara khafa, Vaadian mera daaman, Pathar key sanam, Chaand mera dil, Main zindagi kaa saath, Mainey poocha chaand sey, sun sun jaalima, Koi jab raah na paay, hum to chaley pardes, badan pey sitaarey, laal chadi maidaan, Tum jo mil gaye, O meri shaahey, Sau baar janam lengey, Tum mujhey yoon bhula, Tumney mujhey dekha, Terey merey sapney, Tumny pukaara hum chaley aay

Name a situation/mood and Rafi’s song will be there on the top.

Swami

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3,774 Blog Comments to “True Voice – Mohd Rafi”

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  1. ashwani says:

    Reason for writing again and again is my comments are awaiting since last couple of days. I don’t know why it is in awaiting state. Nway i am again copying the same things.

    ============================================
    Manoj,

    U r idiot and etiquetteless guy. FYI I am not in Bangalore.
    Currently i am in Japan and basically from Delhi.

    And I m not eager to see u or ur band because i’ve already visualized what kind of person u r. Just stop runing around bush, and compile ur song and post it to my mentioned mail address.

    Before u said Rafi is like blah-blah, if u read all the mail then u will find that i wrote KK is Microsoft before u wrote the same for Rafi and still u don’t know that there is no comparison between “Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, Yahoo, eBay, and Google” as a whole, may be partly google has search Engine (ONLY), ebay is Ecommerce but as whole Microsoft is pioneer.

    Boss, don’t get offended.
    I have never been personal to u till now and i m asking u to follow the same etiqutte.

    If u r involved in Yahoo band then u should aware that u could not miss KISHORE in any show but u can miss RAFI easily.

    Boss i can also write like you if u don’t stop writing nonsense thing.

    Manoj, As u said u r senior VP, nice to read it but disaapointed with ur sense/attitudes.

    You should know that u don’t have rights to say ‘IDIOT’ or some nonsense thing to other.

    I can also say the same thing to u but if i do so the same then there will not be any difference between u and me.

    Hope u understand and behave nicely as a gentleman now onwards.
    U can write anything on Rafi or KISHORE because it would be ur view not others.

    Don’t get personal. It will be good for u, me and forum.

    =========================================

    This comment is just to tell you what i mean on “Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, Yahoo, eBay, and Google”.

    As per their business, i am depicting the suitable personality who can be good in one or more fields (BUSINESS).

    MICROSOFT: KISHORE KUMAR (Versatile- OS, Coding Tool, Office, and above all criticise by so called “knowledgable person”)

    HP: MAHMOOD (Comedy acting, direction, production)

    IBM: RAJ KAPOOR (Acting, Direction, Production, involded in all technical part)

    SUN: MOHD. RAFI (Great in SInging, CLassical trained and great respect)

    Yahoo: Amitabh (Acting, production, little bit singing)

    eBay: Manish Malhotra (Fashion Designer)

    Google: Jhamu Sukand

    I meant to say there is no comparison between above all except MICROSOFT and SUN.

    Tommorrow u will say Rafi is like Raymonds,Bata, Tissot etc which will not be valid.

  2. ashwani says:

    This blog is just to tell you what i mean on “Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, Yahoo, eBay, and Google”

    MICROSOFT: KISHORE KUMAR (Versatile- OS, Coding Tool, Office, and above all criticise by so called “knowledgable person”)

    HP: MAHMOOD (Comedy acting, direction, production)

    IBM: RAJ KAPOOR (Acting, Direction, Production, involded in all technical part)

    SUN: MOHD. RAFI (Great in SInging, CLassical trained and great respect)

    Yahoo: Amitabh (Acting, production, little bit singing)

    eBay: Manish Malhotra (Fashion Designer)

    Google: Jhamu Sukand

    I meant to say there is no comparison between above all except MICROSOFT and SUN.

    Tommorrow u will say Rafi is like Raymonds,Bata, Tissot etc which will not be valid.

  3. ashwani says:

    Manoj,

    U r idiot and etiquetteless guy. FYI I am not in Bangalore.
    Currently i am in Japan and basically from Delhi.

    And I m not eager to see u or ur band because i’ve already visualized what kind of person u r. Just stop runing around bush, and compile ur song and post it to my mentioned mail address.

    Before u said Rafi is like blah-blah, if u read all the mail then u will find that i wrote KK is Microsoft before u wrote the same for Rafi and still u don’t know that there is no comparison between “Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, Yahoo, eBay, and Google” as a whole, may be partly google has search Engine (ONLY), ebay is Ecommerce but as whole Microsoft is pioneer.

    Boss, don’t get offended.
    I have never been personal to u till now and i m asking u to follow the same etiqutte.

    If u r involved in Yahoo band then u should aware that u could not miss KISHORE in any show but u can miss RAFI easily.

    Boss i can also write like you if u don’t stop writing nonsense thing.

    Manoj, As u said u r senior VP, nice to read it but disaapointed with ur sense/attitudes.

    You should know that u don’t have rights to say ‘IDIOT’ or some nonsense thing to other.

    I can also say the same thing to u but if i do so the same then there will not be any difference between u and me.

    Hope u understand and behave nicely as a gentleman now onwards.
    U can write anything on Rafi or KISHORE because it would be ur view not others.

    Don’t get personal. It will be good for u, me and forum.

  4. ashwani says:

    Manoj,

    As u said u r senior VP, nice to read it.
    But u should know that u don’t have rights to say ‘IDIOT’ or someother nonsense thing.

    I can also say the same thing to u but then there will not be nay difference between u and me.

    Hope u understand and behave nicely.
    U can write anything on Rafi or KISHORE, i will put my point for that but don’t get personal.

  5. ashwani says:

    Manoj,

    U r idiot and etiquetteless guy. FYI I am not in Bangalore.
    Currently i am in Japan and basically from Delhi.

    I m not eager to see u or ur band because i already visualize what kind of person u r. Just stop runing around bush, and compile ur song and post it to my mentioned mail address.

    Before u said Rafi is like blah-blah, if u read all the mail then u will find that i wrote KK is Microsoft before u wrote the same for Rafi and still u don’t know that there is no comparison between “Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, Yahoo, eBay, and Google” as a whole, may be partly google has search Engine (ONLY), ebay is Ecommerce but as whole Microsoft is pioneer.

    Boss, don’t get offended.
    I have never been personal to u and i m asking u to follow the same etiqutte.

    If u r involved in Yahoo band then u should aware that u can’t miss KISHORE in any show but u can miss RAFI.

    Boss i can also write like you if u don’t stop writing nonsense thing.
    Don’t get personal and follow the forum rule. It will be good for u, me and forum.

  6. Manoj says:

    Ashwani,

    Let me know whenever you are in Bangalore next. I work for Yahoo Bangalore, and am also involved with a small band in the city. I will introduce you to my band, and will also demonstrate how easy the apparently difficult songs of Kishore are.

    -Manoj

  7. Manoj says:

    Ashwani…you are a complete idiot who can’t even understand the context of statements. I said that Rafi is like Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, Yahoo, eBay, and Google all combined into one. It was supposed to be a “metaphor” if you know what that means. It was supposed to imply that Rafi was the greatest in almost “all” aspects of singing since all these companies excel in different fields of IT. I am senior VP myself at Yahoo, and know the high-tech industry much better than insignificant imbeciles like you. No wonder you like Kishore so blindly….you don’t have any class, you are totally illiterate both musically and otherwise. Again, you put your foot in the mouth by quoting people like Dhoni & Sachin….they are good cricketers, but not well-versed in music either, and not the most educated people. The fact that you are getting excited by Dhoni’s musical choice shows your lack of education, cheapness, and lack of any class. You poor thing….you need help!!!

  8. ashwani says:

    Manoj,

    I feel very sorry for u, u r sounding cheap everytime.
    Now i understand ur knowledge abt music and other area.
    I remember in one blog i said KK is like Microsoft and Rafi is Java(SUN) and u replied (Note: As u didn’t have any word to say apart from stealing my words) that RAFI is like Microsoft, HP, ebay and etc.

    Manoj, my fried, you should know that Microsot, HP, ebay are working in different-2 domain. There is no competition between Microsoft, HP,ebay but there is huge competition between Microsoft and Java(SUN).

    Just check DHONI and SACHIN interview, their preferred singer is none other than KISHORE. I saw live DHONi on NDTV yesterday where he said he alwasy listen KK after asking question on songs by audience (I am sure there is no politics and he is not RDB’s relative 🙂 :)) and SACHIN said the same thing long back. He has huge collection of KISHORE, he also listen MUKESH.

    And You mean to say LP did not have music knowledge that he allow kishore to sing RAM BALRAAM song and many hits even though KK could not utter the word correctly.

    Pls. go to some specialist and get check-up ur ears. Till now i did not say anything against RAFI because i had great respect for him n i m great music lover. Rafi could not do justice to many songs, it doesn’t mean i would say something wrong/cheap abt him.

    Listen few Rafi songs mention below and come up with ur opinion. I don’t want to say anything against Rafi.

    1. Salaam kijiye, aayi hai Aarti Devi ..(Bhupinder sound better)
    2. Bottle se ek baat chali hai .. (disaster)

    Manoj, just listen
    1. EK Mahal ma chhamchham karti rahti dui sahzadi

    Manoj, I have those collection of Rafi and KISHORE which u would not have listen yet. And I am fond of collecting all those songs sung by Rafi/KK which are not famous.

    From next blog, don’t forget to mention “I” before u say Kishore was cheap and loud because it is ur personal view so say “I think” OR “I feel’. U can’t take everybody granted.

    You are saying “O majhi Re”, “Nafrat ki Duniya” are not tough songs, can u pls. render both songs in ur voice and upload it to my mail. This is my mailid: songdb@rediffmail.com.

  9. Manoj says:

    Ashu,

    To respond to your allegations, I am not throwing balloon in the air. You think like that because you feel really cornered and exposed.

    It’s you who is just “throwing balloons in the air” by mentioning O Manjhi Re Tera kinara, and Main Shayar Badnaam as difficult songs 🙂 Do you have any consience at all?? Any shame?? If you can’t even sing these childish songs, then you might not even sing in Bollywood. 🙂 It just goes to show that you are such an ignoramus!!

    The only reason why I told you I didn’t want to get into individual songs is that it’s childish for you to try to judge and compare a phenomena called Rafi by one or two songs. And I told you before that I have heard almost all of KK songs, and he has never ever sounded better than the GREATEST Rafi. Plus, Rafi has sounded 100 times better even in all the Rafi-KK duets that you have mentioned. Anyways, I mentioned to you the Ram Balram example. Listen to the song again, and you will notice the difference. To quote me from my other post:

    “For example, listen to “Ek Rasta Do Raahi” from Ram Balram and you will notice the HUGE difference between a genius like Rafi and a clown like KK. Rafi sings the song effortlessly and masterfully, while KK is just shouting through in his constipated style. Of special notice is the point when the antaras wrap up in a higher pitch and while Rafi breezes through it effortlessly, Kishore sounds so constipated that he can’t even say the words clearly!! 🙂 ”

    And to your point that anyone could have sung Kya Hua Tera Vaada, I should tell you that you are partly right. Most competent singers could have sung this song well, but not Kishore. Firstly, even though the antaras are not very high-pitch, it is still high pitched enough to make Kishore sound like he is constipating. I mean, KK couldn’t even pull off Nafrat Ki Duniya after several tries and the MDs had to send a special request to Rafi, and Nafrat Ki Duniya is not even such a tough song. Secondly, Kishore’s voice was just too loud, harsh and this song will also have ended up sounding cheap. Again, I have the greatest respect for KK as a film personality, but I can’t help it if his voice wasn’t very good….I am just stating the facts.

  10. Manoj says:

    Poor Ashu,

    Since you are just so ridiculously deluded, I am sending a Manna Dey interview for you in which he says that categorically that amongst all the male singers “I don’t think there is anyone to touch Mohd Rafi.”.

    http://www.littleindia.com/september2004/AiMerePyareWatan.htm

    I have another inteview where he calls Mohd. Rafi as the greatest singer in the world, and then mentions that Lata & Asha are his 2 other favorite singers!!!! I will send you this link later once I find it. I have yet another interview where Manna Dey says that Rafi holds the positions 1 to 10 in the world of playback singing.

    Also read what Udit Narayan, Sonu Nigam etc. have to say about Rafi. Udit Narayan clearly says that “I admire all our great singers, but to me Rafisaab is the ultimate.” That clearly means that Udit rates Rafi higher than your KK. http://www.screenindia.com/fullstory.php?content_id=10916

  11. ashwani says:

    Rashid,
    As you said RDB always give easiest composition to KK. It means RDB composed only easy music because 80-90% of his song sung by KISHORE.

    Few of many RDB easiest composition for KISHORE 🙂 🙂

    1. O Manjhi Re Tera kinara

    2. Kucch to log kahenge
    Note: Manna Dey was begging for this songs from RDB but after listening this song. He said “I could have not done justice to this song as KISHORE did”. This is not my word, this is Manna Da word.

    3. Main Shaayar Badnaam

    4. Na koi dil me samaya.

    5. Meri pyari Bindu
    Note: Its hilarious but if you have time please listen the way he sang.

    I can mention few of many easy song composed by LP

    Na hasana mere gham pe, insaaf karna..
    Jo main ro padu to mujhe maaf karna.
    Note: Just listen last anatara

    Again, I am not comparing KK with Rafi from their SOLO, Reason for writing this blog is, According to u KK sung all easiest songs pls. listen above songs as music lover not as rafi fan.

    Enjoy.

  12. ashwani says:

    Dear Rashid,

    I am using 2 name because my laptop has name ashu and my desktop has name ashwani so when i use laptop, you can see ashu and desktop, ashwani. I have written a programe which reads machine name and display it in the ‘NAME’ textbox. Hope u got it.

    Nway now come to KK and Rafi point. I like ur blog because you wrote what you really think correct fromur point of view, not like Manoj who just throw baloon in the air.

    Just listen to this line in same song (Raam Balram) KK and rafi both sang : “Mana hai hum dono ka juda hai raasta”. KK is awesome.

    Rashid, all Rafi songs you mentioned in ur blog is terrific. I like it so much but i request don’t compare KK and Rafi with their solo songs.

    Just listen KK songs :
    1. Yaadon me wo jaaye kahan, dhadkan ka bandhan to dhadkan se hai
    2. Na koi dil me samaya, na koi pahlu me aaya (AA gale lag ja)
    3. matlabi hai log yaha par matlabi zamana (Begana)
    4. Meri zindagi ne mujhpe ehsaan kya kiya hai (DO aur do paanch)…Very low note.

    Indivisually u can’t compare both but yes you can compare them with their duets.

    You can listen following songs and come up with views.

    1. Ek mahal maa chhamchham karti rahti dui sahzadi …the way KK sing “DUI” fantastic
    2. Sa re ga ma (Chupke-2_)
    3. Tumko khush dekhkar main bahut khush hua (AAP ke Diwane)
    4. Kya mausam hai (Doosra Aadmi)

    There are many songs and if u r really music lover, u can easily differentiate and find KK is far ahead.

    I am not going to stop you by saying “Rafi is greatest”. This line is true according to you but not me.

    Rafi fans always complaint that RDB favored KK, i m saying why not if RDB thought only KK could do justice to his composition.

    You should not forget RDB first choice was Rafi till AAradhana. Hope you rememeber ‘The Train, Baharo ke Sapne, of course Pyar ka mousam’.

    Once again I always rate KK with Rafi with their duets not with their solo.
    Rafi’s solo and KK’ sole both are marvelous.
    I am big fan of KK and Rafi but i like KK more.

    So Rashid, according to me KK is greatest.

    There is nothing personal, so pls. understand it.

  13. ashwani says:

    Rashid,

    I formatted my desktop today and wrongly spelled my machine name. Just now i reset.

    Reason for writing to make you sure that you do not get confused.
    🙂

    Regard

  14. ashwnai says:

    Dear Rashid,

    I am using 2 name because my laptop has name “ashu” and my desktop has name “ashwani” so when i use laptop, you can see ashu and desktop, ashwani. I have written a programe which reads machine name and display it in the ‘NAME’ textbox. Hope u got it.

    Nway now come to KK and Rafi point. I like ur blog because you wrote what you really think correct from ur point of view, not like Manoj who just throw baloon in the air.

    Just listen to this line in same song (Raam Balram) KK and rafi both sang : “Mana hai hum dono ka juda hai raasta”. KK is awesome.

    Rashid, all Rafi songs you mentioned in ur blog is terrific. I like it so much but i request don’t compare KK and Rafi with their solo songs.

    Just listen KK solo songs which are not famous but they are great:
    1. Yaadon me wo jaaye kahan, dhadkan ka bandhan to dhadkan se hai
    2. Na koi dil me samaya, na koi pahlu me aaya (AA gale lag ja)
    3. matlabi hai log yaha par matlabi zamana (Begana)
    4. Meri zindagi ne mujhpe ehsaan kya kiya hai (DO aur do paanch)…Very low note.

    Indivisually u can’t compare both but yes you can compare them with their duets.

    You can listen following songs and come up with views.

    1. Ek mahal maa chhamchham karti rahti dui sahzadi …the way KK sing “DUI” fantastic
    2. Sa re ga ma (Chupke-2_)
    3. Tumko khush dekhkar main bahut khush hua (AAP ke Diwane)
    4. Kya mausam hai (Doosra Aadmi)

    There are many songs and if u r really music lover, u can easily differentiate and find KK is far ahead.

    I am not going to stop you by saying “Rafi is greatest”. This line is true according to you but not me.

    Rafi fans always complaint that RDB favored KK, i m saying why not if RDB thought only KK could do justice to his composition.

    You should not forget RDB first choice was Rafi till AAradhana. Hope you rememeber ‘The Train, Baharo ke Sapne, of course Pyar ka mousam’.

    Once again I always rate KK with Rafi with their duets not with their solo.
    Rafi’s solo and KK’ sole both are marvelous.
    I am big fan of KK and Rafi but i like KK more.

    So Rashid, according to me KK is greatest.

    There is nothing personal, so pls. understand it.

  15. Khalid Rashid says:

    Also Ashwini or Ashu you mentioned that KYA HUA TERA VADA sung by Rafi saab could be sung by anyone. EXACTLY because RD Burman could only compose songs that were easy to sing Not Rafi saabs fault.
    Kishore Kumar songs are also easy to sing. But what I really like about this song is that that is the song that he Rafi saab won the award for and also coming from a RD composing who always favoured Kishore.

    No need to get upset as I am only making this point because you brought it up in the first place.

    Khalid Rashid
    UK

  16. Khalid Rashid says:

    Oh and Ashu or Ashwini

    I forgot to put that SHRI MOHD RAFI SAAB THE GREATEST SINGER BOLLYWOOD EVER PRODUCED. Just in case you forget that.

    KK good singer, loud singer yes I like some of his songs but thats all.
    with all respect

    Khalid Rashid
    UK

  17. Khalid Rashid says:

    All I will say is that KK is not even a patch on Rafi Saab.

    Ashwini or Ashu whoever you are that one person using two names.

    Since you brought this example of Ram Balram.

    In Ram Balram Ik Rasta Do Rahi just listen to Rafi Sahab sing the line HUM CHALTE HAAAIN TO DETE HAAAIN KADAM YEH GAWAHI. Just so so class the way he says it. Honestly when I heard this song when I was a kid I did not know it was Rafi and Kishore singing it I only knew it was Amithab and Dharmendrain the film.

    Amithab in the film sounded so heavy voice when he sings ACHA HAI HARAB HAI BURA HAI NAIK HAI and who sang it KK as if he is trying to prove he is more better than Rafi as towering over him.

    When Rafi saab sings that line Oh my god you really hear a nice smoothing voice what else can I say honestly that made me take up and notice Dharmendra in the film. Whats more Rafi goes on to dominate the song.

    Have you heard of Rafi saabs SADKE HEER TUJHPE HUM FAKEER SADKE. On Asian Gold radio the presenter said no other singer shall be able to repeat what Rafi saab did there.

    Listen to Yeh Duniya Yeh Mehfil and the line at the beginning where he says MERE KAAM KI NAHIN honestly I heard this with the headphones on and the feeling, the emotion, I cannot believe how good it was.

    Listen to YEH RAAT HAI PYAASI PYASI. Listen to the lines NAYI AAG DIL KO JALANE LAGI HAI MACHALNA SIKANE LAGI HAI and so on and I can tell you that no other singer will be able to do justice.

    Khalid Rashid
    UK

  18. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    Again u r sounding chidish. Sometime u says popularity doesn’t imply greatness.
    And what u said in ur last blog:
    “More people request Rafi’s songs on the radio & TV shows than even Lata”
    Even today more people demand KK over Lata and Rafi.
    I am sure u r always free, just listen FM/Zee Musi/V TV, u can found more KK songs on demand.
    Pls. be firm on ur word buddy,

    8 yrs. old guys are always better than u (may be in later 30’s) because whatever they say, they say from their heart. Not like you who doesn’t accept the truth and always want to run away from truth.

    I know u r very intelligent who doesn’t know how to respect great personality.
    If intelligent people are like you then sorry i am ok with illieterate.

  19. Manoj says:

    Poor Ashu…don’t be in denial just because you stand brutally exposed. You are absolutely crazy and deluded in thinking that I am making stuff up on what SPB, IllyaRaja, Yesudas, Ravi, Naushad, Manna Dey, Anu Malik, LP, SJ, Anoop Jalota, Shailendra Singh, OP Nayyar, Sonu Nigam, Udit Narayan says “Rafi is greatest”. I have their interviews in either film magazines, tv interviews or on the internet. This is quite a big and illustrious list and some or most of these guys might like Kishore too but ALL OF THESE PEOPLE RATE RAFI HIGHER THAN KISHORE, and just as well because KK was nothing compared to the GREATEST Rafi. Ashwani…………after all these exchanges, I am sorry to say that you sound like a person who is not only illiterate musically but perhaps also otherwise too. You need to learn how to think critically and analyze the depth of things, rather than think and talk like an eight-year old.

    Talking about popularity, let me give you a huge shock that Rafi & Lata are the most popular and well-known singers from the Indian subcontinent in the entire world overall. More people request Rafi’s songs on the radio & TV shows than even Lata, forget your favorite Kishore!! Different singers are more popular in different segments of the community, but Rafi is the #1 singer even in popularity, at least amongst all the male singers.

  20. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    The comment which i have attached in my 3rd last blog was my first comment in this forum, you came later. First Ravi who replied me then you, so boss please check it with ur naked eyes.

    If you don’t care Nasir Hussain, Lata and Asha then who cares you. According to you my childish statement “I feel Kishore is far ahead of him as playback”. I wrote “I” and i hope you undesrtand meaning of “I”.

    Manoj, Just watch Lata interview, it will clear ur inherit doubts.
    Just check what Lata said abt KK in LA concert.

  21. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    I KNow the difference that’s why i am trying to take you on right path. Last week Anu malik came to Radio City, he was interviewed with Sonu Nigam where he said Rafi and Kishore both are legend in their own style.

    I don;t know where you saw SPB, IllyaRaja, Yesudas, Ravi, Naushad, Manna Dey, Anu Malik, LP, SJ, Anoop Jalota, Shailendra Singh, OP Nayyar, Sonu Nigam, Udit Narayan says “Rafi is greatest”, must be in your dream.

    Manoj, you are penning things which you want to hear from others.

    I have seen and read almost all interviews given by MDs and singers so whatever you said 100% wrong and baseless. Just watch SPB’s quote abt KK in LATA concert.

    Udit said in his interview in “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL” that he wanted to become KISHORE and RAFI because they got the same status and fame as our heroes like AMitabh and DILIP KUMAR are getting.

    Boss what am i writing is with proof, not just cooking something in air.

    Manoj, you are sounding cheap by saying meaningless quote by LATA.

  22. Manoj says:

    By the way, I have heard all of SPB, IllyaRaja, Yesudas, Ravi, Naushad, Manna Dey, Anu Malik, LP, SJ, Anoop Jalota, Shailendra Singh, OP Nayyar, Sonu Nigam, Udit Narayan say “specifically” in interviews that Rafi has been the GREATEST male singer in Bollywood, and some of these people have also said that he has been the GREATEST singer in Bollywood regardless of male and female.

    Don’t be quoting meaningless statements like “sampoorn kalakar” and stuff like that to us, because it doesn’t mean the greatest singer by any stretch of imagination….I guess it’s hard for you to know the difference. 🙂 Learn to read between the lines!!! 🙂

  23. Manoj says:

    Ashu,

    You are like a rabbit blinded by bright lights. If you look at the messages history, yours is the FOURTH message and before my first message in this thread!! Do you get it????? So you started it all by making a childish statement that “I feel Kishore is far ahead of him as playback”. I am sure you will still not be able to figure out what’s happening here.

    I don’t care what Nasir Hussain feels about one Rafi duet with Asha. Rafi might have had his bad days like every human being, but he dominated all other singers in most of their duets, and the whole music world knows that. Even if you imagine in your wildest thoughts that Rafi didn’t sing one song very well, it doesn’t matter because you look at the entire body of work and then compare. Rafi’s body of work dwarfs even Asha’s & Lata’s, and let’s not even talk about KK’s childish stuff.

    And talking about SPB & Shailendra Singh….just ask them who the best male singer ever is and they will tell you Rafi right to your face!! Yeah, they might admire KK but they rate KK much lower than Rafi. In fact, I have a video interview of SPB where he says that he considers Rafi to be at least 10 times better than the next best singer. Dude…..aresn’t you deluded!! And you don’t even understand that even Lata calls KK a “Sampoorn Kalakar” because he was pretty good in a lot of different fields. Lata has never ever called KK as the best singer, and will never do. She knows better than that. I guess you can’t even figure out the meaning of people’s statements!!!!!!!! There is a HUGE difference between saying “Sampoorn Kalakar” and “Greatest Ever Singer”, and we are talking only about singing in this forum, in case you missed that point too. 🙂

  24. ashu says:

    Again you are running on wrong track.
    Tell me who said Rafi is better than KK and KK is better then Rafi from the list of singers/MDs you have mentioned in the comments.

    SPB always admire KK, just listen his track he sung in LATA concert, he took KK songs. He could not justify but he chose KK songs.
    Sailendra singh is hugh admirer of KK. I saw his interview in Zee TV in 1994-5 in “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL” programme. I am sure you have not heard of this programme. As you music lover i’ve never miss a single programme on music.

    Manoj, I am telling u all this with proof not just throwing ballon in the air like you.

    I will tell you those who knows the music they will never compare two legends apart from their legendary style.

    Whatever you are saying is baseless and unbelievable. I wrote many time that it is ur mistake that ur knowledge is better than anyone else.

    Comparing Lata with Rafi shows another lack of music knowledge. Male and Female can’t be compared and FYI female voices are always better than male voices.

    Whatever you said is ur imagination, as i wrote in my prev. blog what Nasir hussain thought on Rafi after hearing “AAJA-2 Main HU PYAR TERA” and this is not imaginary, it was telecast in Doordarshan and CNN IBN while having chat with ASHA/Nasir Hussain and Rajdeep Sardesai(Hope u know him).

    KK is like amitabh, no doubt.
    For your info, Lata told in her inetrview abt Kishore “HE IS SAMPOORNA KALAKAAR”.

    ASHA said that she had to work hard whenever she had to sing with KISHORE/LATA.

    You view is “0” before 2 living legends views.

    Madonna and Pele comparison is happened outside INDIA that’s why you can see such foolish result, u should know this. Indian are more intelligent than anybody else. If you remember Amitabh became “STAR OF THE MELLENIUM” because we indian votes. And same year they said “KK is ‘SINGER OF THE MELLENIUM'”.

  25. Manoj says:

    Ashu,

    By the way, you are totally wrong to believe that whatever is more popular is better. In a very well-known poll, Maradona was rated the best soccer player of all times by more than 80% of the people, with Pele getting only 15% of the votes. Whoever understands soccer knows that Pele was on a totally different level than Maradona and other soccer greats.

    There also have been polls where Shahrukh has been rated better and bigger than even Amitabh, so you should know not to fall into the herd mass mentality.

    Anyways, I have a very strong feeling that Rafi will be rated the best playback singer by people who understand music and know the difference. Just listen to what SPB, IllyaRaja, Yesudas, Lata Mangeshkar, Ravi, Naushad, Manna Dey, Anu Malik, LP, SJ, Anoop Jalota, Shailendra Singh, OP Nayyar, Sonu Nigam, Udit Narayan and a host of other music professionals have said about Rafi. In fact, if you talk to the old-timers in the Hindi music circles, they will tell you that during the 50’s & 60’s, even Lata was considered an inferior singer to Rafi, and that Lata had a Rafi complex all those years because of Rafi’s unparalleled talent and range. That’s why, as great as Lata was/is, she is really lucky that she has outlived Rafi by more than 25 years. These extra years have helped her build a demi-god like image for herself, when in fact, Rafi has actually been the GREATEST of all bollywood singers.

  26. Manoj says:

    Ashu,

    But let me ask you this very simple question. Why did you have to visit a Rafi forum and make an outrageously wild comment like “Kishore is far ahead of him as playback”. That statement of yours was totally uncalled for in this forum, and should have been reserved for a KK forum. This statement of yours started it all. I would be expecting a really rough and hostile reaction if I ever mention in a KK forum that RAFI IS FAR AHEAD OF KK AS FAR AS PLAYBACK SINGING GOES. Think logically, and then you will understand why I have been so stern, and maybe even a li’l harsh on you. In case you thought that you will convert Rafians in a Rafi forum to think that your KK was the best, then you must be fooling yourself. Maybe you don’t understand but fans are fans, and are not that easily swayed away.

    By the way, I used the word “cheap” only in reference to KK’s voice. I think, and I have met a lot of people who agree, that KK’s voice wasn’t the ideal singing voice, and a lot of songs sound loud, harsh, and cheap because of his voice. I don’t know why you took the comment so “personally”. I never called the man cheap or anything. In fact, I have the greatest respect for KK as a film personality, and I think he was very talented overall. I think he was quite a decent singer too in his own right, but was nowhere near Rafi’s vast talents and gifts as a singer. Learn to take things in the right spirit and at their face value. I mean, you should realize that you started the debate, so you should be ready to face the consequences.

  27. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    I know the difference and that is the reason i wanted to open your eyes. As i said in my prev. blog that like and dislike vary from people to people. I don’t want you to admire KK but atleat you should give respect to him. I don’t mind if you say Rafi is greatest but if you start compare with kK then i can’t stop myself and I grab opportunity to let you people to know the reality.

    This is the first comment i wrote in this forum and tell me where i said, Rafi is cheap

    ============================================================================
    hI,

    There is no doubt that Rafi was among the greatest singer india has produced. But personally i feel Kishore is far ahead of him as playback. People take Kishore very lightly because of his jolly image but they don’t know abt real Kishore.

    I always compare singer with their duet with each other not with their solo songs. If solo is benchmark then everybosy has done a good job. For e.g. 1. Tum bin Jaou kaha 2. Ek mahal ma chhamchham karti 3. Jum premi prem karna.

    All above songs sung by Kishore and Rafi but Kishore was far ahead of Rafi. I know It hard to believe for Rafi. I believe both are great but if somebody says Rafi is great then i remind them.

    ===============================================================================

    Pls. try to read my above comment carefully, it may help you to undesrtand me clearly. I am sure you are not pt. Bhimsen Joshi, JashRaj, Gulam Ali or Lata who knows music better than others. I have my own knowlwdge abt music and i am proud of it.

  28. Manoj says:

    Ashwani,

    If you go back and look at the message thread, you will know that you are the first one in the thread to show Rafi as the second-best. I only responded after you had written here. You are the one who started it in a forum of Rafi fans, and that’s why you deserve to be treated this way. At least admit your mistake, or at least be ready to face the consequences, and you are doing neither!! I am sorry to say that you just can’t even see the reasoning and rationale of things!!! I would have never uttered a word against you or KK if you hadn’t started it. That’s why I told you that your comments were more appropriate for a KK forum where you will find like-minded people. Open your eyes and smell some coffee!! KK & Mukesh are alright on their own, but it’s just unfair to compare him to Rafi. I repeat that you need to understand the nuances of music to know the difference between Rafi & the rest, and you definitely don’t get it!! 🙂

  29. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    I saw ur points which is cheap. You mean to say those who are listening KK are not literate and naive, U mean to say Rajesh Roshan, LP, RDB and new generation MDs are naive. That is rediculous, only Rafi fans are intelligent and music literate :), Its really funny and kiddy.

    I don’t have intention to hurt you and i don’t have any problem with Rafi fans, i know abt him as good as i know abt KK.

    I spend my saturday with all three legends KK, Rafi and Mukesh but i give KK edge over other 2 legends. I never say any cheap thing to anyone.

    But you are crossing the etiqutte by abusing great singer by producing one side proof and ignoring other side. That prompt me to reply nothing else.

    Take care.

  30. Manoj says:

    Hi Ashwani,

    The bottomline is that you are intruding into a Rafi forum and trying to bring him down and show him second-best to a singer who was clearly not in the same league and which everybody who is unbiased and some music nous and understanding knows very well. This is just bad manners, and this is why I have been pretty stern, firm, and blunt with you. I would never intrude into a KK forum and hurt his fans by showing him inferior to somebody else. Why would I?? And if I ever did, I would accept whatever they hurl at me. The problem with you is that you are getting all sensitive and offended when you should be actually expecting it. As I said earlier that you can write eulogies on your favorite KK in a KK forum and like-minded people(ppl who are naive about music and aren’t that musically literate) will like your thoughts and admire your taste. See my point???? 🙂

  31. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    If you see all my blog, i have never said anything cheap against Rafi that is not my cup of tea except few comparison i made with KK as music lover, i am not like you who don’t give respect to others.

    Music lovers never says cheap or loud to any great singers whether its Udit, Sonu Nigam, Sanu, anwar, abhijit. Like and dislike always vary from people to people.

    Today if you will ask for voting, KK will win. So please accept the reality.
    Being popular and in-demand(like KK, Amitabh, Lara, Bill Gates) always imply being very good, people like you who opposed them and make them greatest.

    FYI i play Table and how many people play Table nowaday. As far as KK concern, Not only he is/was a great singer but also he had great sense of music direction. KK music direction list is as follows:

    1. Jhumaroo
    2. Door Gagan ke chhaon me
    3. Pyar ajnabi hai (U might have not heard of this composition) and many more……

    I liked whatever u said abt Kishore acting. Manoj, He came to industry to become singer but circumstances diverted him toward acting and he was very busy in that till 1969. That’s what i meant.

    Manoj, How you people can maintain double standard? One side you people abuse Microsoft and other side you praise also.

    Manoj, My taste is not low and people who think cheap abt other they are one who behave cheap like you.

    I don’t have any problem with Rafi or Rafi fans. As i said Rafi is always my second best favourite male singer.

  32. Manoj says:

    Ashu,

    Dude….constipation is the trait of KK, Kumar Sanu, and some of his other fans, so you can keep it with yourself. Anyways, since you gave me a corporate industry analogy to me, let me tell you that Rafi is like the Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, Yahoo, eBay, and Google all combined into one. He is/was virtually the Voice of India.

    You are virtually deluding yourself into thinking that KK was more inclined towards acting till Aradhana came. This again shows your lack of reasoning, rationale, and lack of knowledge. If you ask anybody who knows KK(and I have met such people personally at concerts etc.) they will all tell you that his first and foremost love was singing and that he was the most reluctant actor. He used to act just that he could get some songs to sing in his own movies. The fact is that everybody used to avoid him like an extremely bad, bubonic plague. It’s irrelevant that he finally became successful as a singer later(thanks to the promotion and popularization that he got through RDB & Rajesh Khanna). You would be childish to think that being popular and in-demand(like KK was in the 70’s) always imply being very good. In KK’s case, this wasn’t the case. Just compare his body of work with Rafi’s and you would be feeling humbled and exposed.

    I seriously think that you don’t understand music, you don’t play any musical instruments, and that you are NOT definitely not a good/decent singer. All of this is pretty clear from your remarks. The point is that you can continue on loving KK, but you are in the wrong forum. You will definitely be despised and looked down upon in forums like these especially when you try to go against the GREATEST Rafi. Just go and write in a KK forum and like-minded people(with low tastes, and no or very li’l understanding of music) will agree with you and will appreciate your strange, emotional, and entirely baseless comments.

  33. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    Ashu is Ashwani.

    thanx

  34. ashu says:

    Manoj,

    I am sure whatever he told you behind the scene was only and only politics because somewhere Manna Dey also became the victim of Kishore’s popularity. He along with others accepted that he lost to Kishore in “Chatur Naar Karke Singar” though he was not ready to lose but after dubbing he accepted the defeat. How can you say whaterver he is saying on Radio is politics and only he is saying truth to you.

    Manoj, pls. wake up and accept the reality.

    Now i am sure about your knowledge in Music after reading ur comments on SDB and Ram-Balram songs. Rafi is nowhere near to KK in “Ek rasta aaha-aaha” just listen how Rafi render “aaha-aaha” and how Kishore render “aaha-aaha” no comaparison. I think you keep forwarding Kishore version which sound like constipation 🙂 for you. Pls. hear him instead of forwarding, constipation will not be there :).

    As far as SDB concern, he gave enough chance to Rafi and commenting aginst him show ur lacking knowledge in music.

    I started listen Rafi songs till i was in 8th but as i matured i started liking “Man of the Parts” Kishore.

    UR comments:
    “In the world of singing, the quality of voice is paramount and that’s why till RDB came to the fore, all the MDs(except fellow-Bengali SDB) avoided touching KK like a bubonic plague.”

    Reply for ur comment:
    RDB gave Kishore full-fledge song in “PADOSAN” before that LP gave major hit with KK “MR. X in Bombay”, Pls. go through music history. Before 1969, Kishore was very much inclined to his acting so there was not at all competition for Rafi but when he jumped into singing with 100%, he left everybody including Rafi behind. Rafi was unable to get work till 1976(I know you get constipation after reading it).

    There is/was only one competitot for Kishore and that is/was KISHORE himself. Manoj, except Nausad and O P Nayyar rafi was not a first choice for any MDs in 50’s, 60’s and 70’s i don’t want to talk abt because KISHORE and only Kishore was everywhere.

    Shankar-Jaikishan, Salil Choudhary, Khayyam, Roshan always like MUKESH. And after 69, all get replaced with KISHORE.

    Manoj, in one sentence, people like you always blame Microsoft, they criticise Microsoft at any stage. Even though Java is platform independent(Rafi-classical touch), Microsoft is ruling since last 30 yrs and Java people is cripping like Rafi fans.

    Same thing is true in case of KISHORE.

  35. Manoj says:

    Ashwani,

    I have met Manna personally backstage after a concert, and I have heard him tell me and about 20 other people that Kishore was the worst of all the singers in those days!! What he is saying on the radio is all politics, he has to say it for different reasons…but I guess you are too naive to grasp the nuances of that. Anyways, I have at least 5-10 different interviews of Manna Dey where he has mentioned that Rafi is/was the greatest singer of all…even greater than Lata.

    I even have an interview where the interview asks Manna Dey specifically to compare Rafi, KK, and Mukesh. Manna begins the answer by saying that Rafi was so much better than everyone else that he was on a different and much higher level than both KK & Mukesh.

    I didn’t feel necessary to respond to your comments on the Rafi-KK duets only because I, and all the Rafi fans, think that Rafi totally dominated all the duets and has totally exposed the non-singer KK who just resorts to shouting the fun songs instead of singing, and generally sings the songs very flat. I answered all your comments of Rafi-KK duets just by saying I don’t think that KK has ever, for even a second, sounded better than Rafi and that’s mainly because of KK’s poor voice quality. In the world of singing, the quality of voice is paramount and that’s why till RDB came to the fore, all the MDs(except fellow-Bengali SDB) avoided touching KK like a bubonic plague. Anyways, talking about a specific Rafi-KK duet, just listen to “Ek Rasta Do Raahi” from Ram Balram and you will notice the HUGE difference between a genius like Rafi and a clown like KK. Rafi sings the song effortlessly and masterfully, while KK is just shouting through in his constipated style. Of special notice is the point when the antaras wrap up in a higher pitch and while Rafi breezes through it effortlessly, Kishore sounds so constipated that he can’t even say the words clearly!! 🙂 It’s just gross, and this just shows you why KK ran away from so many different songs. The guy just didn’t have the range of a real singer. He was never meant to be a singer! And in all the songs that you mention like “Tumko Khush Dekh Kar” and “Sa Re Ga Ma”, I think Rafi sounds much much superior than KK the non-singer.

    Anyways, looking at the bigger picture, just listen to all of Rafi’s songs and all of KK’s, and try to understand the nuances of the songs, and then you will realize how much better Rafi was/is than any other singer. I am just proud that he was an Indian because I have never heard any other singer in any language even close to being as good as Rafi Saab!!

  36. ashwani says:

    Dear Manoj,

    There was a problem in my broadband due to which this happend. Manoj, at least we people accept our mistake, but not the same in ur case.

    Nway, i think u had not read my prev. comments in which i replied Ravi on Manna Dey comment, Pls. read it.

    Like me, there are 1000 of people who heard Manna dey on Radio City 2 months back where he said, Kishore was only singer who was not basura in any song and he also said “HE WAS UNCOMPARABLE”. Manoj, this is Manna Dey words not my.

    As far as Rafi considered, He was genious in his own era/style, you can’t compare him with “Man of Parts” KISHORE.

    You don;t have answers for all Kishore-Rafi duets songs which i have mentioned in my comments earlier. So in all ur prev. comments, you keep saying his voice was cheap and loud because you do console urself by saying so, pls. hear his soft and melidious songs also. I m sure i can’t change ur view, this is the frustration with all trained singers fans. They can’t digest one guy who was untrained but overshadow all SURAMAs in all fields whether its Direction (Door gagan ki Chaao mein, Jhumaroo), Music (same before), acting.

    I hope you know SALIL choudhary, After MERE APNE movie songs, he said he made a huge mistake by not taking this guy as singer in his all prev. movie. He repented after singing kishore in all his forthcoming movies.

    There is no point in just saying KK voice was cheap and loud. Please reply me on KK and Rafi duets, why Rafi was sidelined in almost all songs.

    Before log off, i must say there was ASHA interview with Rajdeep Sardesai on CNN IBN where she said she was only scared of singing in front of LATA and KISHORE.

    You and me are not better than ASHA BHONSALE and MANNA DEY.

    Manoj, my friend, You can keep admiring Rafi even i do but don’t shy for giving credit to KK for his great work.

    I am not frustrated but i can see the same at ur end.

    Thats all i have to say.

    Take Care.

  37. Manoj says:

    Hi Ashwani,

    Like a true KK fan, you clearly seem rattled, flustered, and nervous in the face of true competition and that’s why you are uploading blank and senseless posts 🙂 Anyways, I can understand and sympathize….you are a KK fan after all 🙂 Anyways, just like a typical KK fan, all your reasonings and logic are baseless, and you are just getting emotional. I am telling you that I really liked KK and RDB tunes when I didn’t quite understand the nuances of music, and I have probably heard more of KK than most of KK fans. However, once I got into music, I realized how how challenged, and limited KK was as a singer. Plus, his voice was just too cheap, and loud.

    Just read Ravi’s post above that Manna Dey told him personally that people in the music circles didn’t even count KK as a singer, and that it was just a sign of degradation of Indian music that a person like KK had become popular. He also jokingly said that he couldn’t say that in media since he was a Bengali himself, and people in Kolkata won’t be able to digest the truth!! 🙂

    Anyways, unlike KK, Lata is undoubtedly a great great singer and everybody who knows music knows that. And I don’t want to get into a Rafi/Lata comparison because they are both supremely great singers. But I have heard from a lot of old-timers that when both Rafi & Lata were both at their peaks during 50’s & 60’s, Rafi was almost unanimously considered better than Lata. Of course, Lata has outlived and outsung Rafi by more than 25 years now, and that has helped in bolstering her already iconic image even more.

  38. ashwani says:

    Hi,
    Sorry for me prev. blank comment, By mistake i have submitted.
    Sorry..

  39. ashwani says:

    c

  40. ashwani says:

    HI Manoj,

    I know you are big fan of Rafi but it doesn’t mean he is better than Lata and Kishore. You have rights to say that you are big fan of Rafi but truth is Kishore is far ahead of him.

    To remind you, i must say there was hardly any work for Rafi between 1970-1976 execpt few songs, credit goes to KK. After that RD gave him “Kya hua Tera vaada” and LP “Sirdi wale sai baba” so again he manage to get work till he died.

    See Kishore is like Viv. Richard and Lara who deliver best at any condition, not like Sachin who always search for his favourable his condition and Rafi was the same (Sachin). Manoj, simpistic people like me who can play better cricket, rate Lara better than Sachin.

    Rafi fans says he is good classical singer, i am saying you can’t put him in the same league of Manna Dey. He was very good playback singer but of course not better than KK.

    Dear Manoj, I know my music sense and i am proud of it, I like Rafi too. He is my second best but i am not like you who try to prove to go at any extent to make best whom you, you have to accept the truth.

    I can just say, Lata is Lata. I have seen Sammi kapoor and Nassir husain interview who said Asha sung ” AAja-2 main hu pya tera” better than Rafi n i m agree to this.

  41. Manoj says:

    Ashwani….all you are doing is putting a foot into your mouth everytime you speak 🙂 Plus, you are just manifesting you are a colossal ignoramus when it comes to music. Get ready for the shock of your life once you open your eyes to the real world, because you will find that your KK is a non-singer with a loud, rickshaw-walla voice who has hardly sung any “real” songs in his entire career. There was a time when I had around 5,000 of Kishore songs in my collection, both Filmi & non-Filmi, and I have heard a big enough sample of his songs. When I compare his voice, his range, and his songs to Rafi’s, it’s almost like comparing like a drop of water(KK) to an ocean(Rafi).

    You again show your poor taste by implying that KK sang “Man Re” better than Rafi. KK again makes the song sound cheap in his cheap voice, even though he deliberately choose one of the very few popular Rafi songs that he could even attempt to sing 🙂 I mean, KK would have died trying to sing any of the higher-pitch Rafi songs. It’s utterly laughable when I look at your list of what you think of as Kishore’s more difficult songs. Compare these childish songs to Rafi Saab’s work, and you would know the difference!! Plus, there is an effortlessness in Rafi’s singing—you could feel that he could touch any sur—which was totally missing from Kishore. He had this very constipated style of singing which he had in common with Kumar Sanu.

    You are again wrong when you compare Rafi-KK duets, and try to delude yourself to thinking that KK has done a better job. A few things you should consider here. Firstly, I don’t think that KK has ever, for even a second, sounded better than Rafi and that’s mainly because of KK’s poor voice quality added to his million other weaknesses. Secondly, these are all easy, childish songs which Rafi was forced to sing because a non-singer like KK could hardly ever sing anything substantial and significant. Thirdly, even if in your own wildest imaginations you think that KK has done a better job, you should reming yourself that this is the most incorrect way of comparing. Taking a cricket analogy, there have been many occasions when players like Dhoni, Pathan, and even tail-enders like Kumble, Harbhajan, or Balaji outplay Sachin Tendulkar in a partnership and even dominate and go on to play a bigger things. Some simplistic people like you might start saying that these tail-enders are better batsman than the great Sachin. My point is that compare the total body of work, and you will realize that KK’s work is nothing, childish, and cheap compared to Rafi’s. To think of it, till Rafi was alive, almost all the MDs in Bollywood considered Rafi to be much better than even Lata….and that’s saying something!!

  42. ashwani says:

    dear Ravi & Manoj,

    I have full sympathy with you guys, i can understand ur feelings, Its very difficult for u people to digest KK.

    Ravi, I think you have just heard what Manna Dey said abt Rafi, and u manage to ignore what he said abt KK, “HE IS UNCOMPARABLE”.

    Rafi’s fan should admit that KK is/was better than Rafi. He is “Singer of Millenium”.

    Just hear Kishore sang rafi song to pay honest tribute, “MAN RE TU KAHE NA DHEER DHARE”. I request all Rafi fan to listen this, i m sure ur heart wil start accepting Kishore.

    Manoj, I am sorry to know abt ur knowledge in Hndi Music, who doesn’t know the difference between Johny Lever/Rafi/Kishore. U people are saying RDB prefer Kishore, of course why not because he was delevering more than what RDB expectated. If you people know abt music and Rafi, you must not forget Rafi got national award for RDB song “Kya hua tera vaada”, He sang melidious “Chura Liya hai tumne” composed by RDB.

    RD simple tunes for KISHORE as per Manoj
    1. Mere Naina Saawan bhado (MEHBOOBA)
    2. O Maanjhi Re (KINARA)
    3. NA KOI DIL me samaya (AA gale lag ja)
    (Rafi can’t even think to murmuring this song)
    4. EK Chatur Naar (PADOSAN)
    (It looks simple but it is not, u can ask any singer to sing Kishore part)
    And so on…… (Manoj, all tunes are very complicated and if you say CHURA LIYE and KYA hua Tera vaada is complex theni m sorry)

    And indirectly Manoj is accepting that Kishore sings better than Rafi after hearing tape, Why not rafi sings better than Lata “Wadiya Mera Daaman” composed by RDB after hearing the tape. Why not today’s singer sing better then Rafi n Kishore after hearing their songs for last 20-30yrs. It means Kishore had more grasping power than anybody else.
    KK was not trained but he had capabilities to overshadow many people just think what would have happend if he had learnt music as Rafi did.

    U can’t just blame RDB, kalyanji-Anandji, LP, Rajesh Roshan for KK fame. Dear friend, i m not saying u people start admiring KK, u people can’t do that but atleast u should never say Rafi was better.

    I describe both legend as…
    KK is amitabh, Rafi is Dilip Kumar.

    Now if you people say Dilip Kumar is better than AMitabh than i will really sorry for you people.

    For me both are genious in their own style.

    Pls. listen below mentioned songs 3 -4 times sung by both:

    1. Jaanu meri jaan, main tere kurban (SHAAN .. RDB)
    Listen How Kishore say “Tere (terrrre)”
    2. Tumko khush dekhkar main bahut khush hua (AAP KE DIWANE .. RAJESH ROSHAN)
    3. Bane chahe dushman (DOSTANA …. LP)
    4. Sa re ga ma (CHUPKE CHUPKE .. SD)

    If u r really music lover and know abt music then u know who is the best 🙂

    Thanks

  43. Manoj says:

    Ashwani & Shankar… it will be more appropriate if you can talk about your KK in the KK forum because we don’t need his presence here especially in front of a million times more talented, gifted, and accomplished like Rafi. I have heard thousands of Kishore songs when I was younger and didn’t understand the depth of music, but dropped them like a bad habit once I started learning music and singing. I realized how extremely childish and flat his songs are, and how ugly & unfit-for-singing his voice was. He even sounds outright cheap in many of his songs. Plus, the guy couldn’t even sing the real songs.. he wasn’t even versatile at all — there are so many genres and so many octave ranges that the guy couldn’t even fathom venturing into. And I have come to conclusion after having heard at least four thousand of his songs!!! Oh….I wish I hadn’t wasted my time listening to him :o))

    KK’s songs became popular in the 70’s because of the Rajesh Khanna & RDB influence. It was just a sign of changing times, and KK got lucky with the great tunes that RDB lifted from the western compositions. You should be aware of the politics of Bollywood. If in case you think(and I don’t) that KK’s version of Tum Bin is better, you should also know that RDB made Rafi sing that song first and gave KK the tape for a week to better it without Rafi knowing about it. Just imagine the unfairness of it all!! Just imagine if Rafi had been given such advantage, he would have simply slaughtered a non-singer like KK. But it doesn’t matter because Rafi is vastly superior in all aspects of singing anyways. Plus, RDB gave KK only those simple tunes which he thought KK could handle.

    And I don’t count yodelling as part of singing, as it sounds very childish many a times. Besides, even a nobody like Johnny Lever can yodel as well as KK and Johnny is not even a singer, so that confirms the point that yodelling is no big deal, and KK fans need to get over that rather childish gimmick. :-)))

  44. ravi says:

    The biggest proof of Rafi’s genius is to hear what Manna Dey has to say about Rafi, and Manna has seen all the Toms, Kishore Kumars and Harrys himself. Manna has said that Rafi is so much better than anyone else that he held positions 1 to 10 in terms of greatness in the field of playback singing!!!! In fact, I met Manna at one of his concerts, and he told me backstage that people in the music circles didn’t even count KK as a singer, and it’s just a sign of degradation of Indian music that a person like KK has become popular. He also jokingly said that he couldn’t say that in media since he was a Bengali himself, and people in Kolkata won’t be able to digest the truth!!

  45. ashwani says:

    Hi Shankar,

    Very true.
    I am saying sorry to all Rafi fans if i hurt them unwittingly. But i thought to convey my feeling on Kishore and Rafi. I always feel that there should not be any comparison between Kishore and Rafi.
    Dear shankar, Kishore is equally good in HIndi and Urdu because he born and brought in Khandawa (M.P. – Hindi speaking state)

    couple of Urgu and complicated hindi songs..

    1. Sarkati jaaye hai rukh se naqab (Deedar-e-yaar)
    2. Mere mehboob ka baakpan alah alah (same movie) ..
    3. All songs from Anurodh ..pure HIndi songs

    Above 2 songs are 100% Urdu, written by Mazrooh who likes Kishore very much.

    Thanks,
    Ashwani

  46. shankar says:

    dear ashwani,

    u said exactly what I thought. technically, bcos of training, rafi might be superior to kishore but, i’ve been a kishore fan and discussed this with a lot of kishore fans, the primary reason people are fans of kishore kumar is not for his technical ability but his unmatched ability to convey emotions.

    rafi might be better at the language of hindi/udru, might be more classically trained, and therefore would know better which words to stress on etc. but, inspite of lacking all this, kishore kumar conveys the emotions better than rafi, simply through his magical voice.

    when they both sang the same songs, kishore kumar’s version became more popular not because he sang them better but because his ability to touch the heart of the listener is probably better than anyone else. nobody can convey emotions like kishore kumar, especially on sad songs. songs like “woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi”, “kuch tho log kahenge”, “teri duniya se hoke majboor chala, mein bahut door …”, “badi sooni sooni hai”, “zindagi ke safar mein guzar jaate hain”, “ghunghroo ki tarah bajta hi raha hoon main” and the list goes on, have that magical effect that his voice brings. it’s very soothing.

    when kishore kumar sings these songs, he brings the feeling so effortlessly thru his voice that people don’t care how correct his pronounciation is, or whether he’s letting the breath out correctly etc.

    at the other extreme, nobody can sing fun songs like him “eena meena deeka”, “khaike paan banaraswala”, “mein hoon jhumroo”, “zindagi ek safar” etc.

    kishore kumar is inimitable, like rafi. IMO, a singer cannot be called great just bcos he’s technically superior. what ultimately matters is how much feeling the singer can bring out. and kishore kumar is unmatched in this aspect.

    sorry if i’ve hurt anyone’s feelings but that’s just my opinion. i can respect the opposite opinion too. to each, his own.

  47. ashwani says:

    hI,

    There is no doubt that Rafi was among the greatest singer india has produced. But personally i feel Kishore is far ahead of him as playback. People take Kishore very lightly because of his jolly image but they don’t know abt real Kishore.

    I always compare singer with their duet with each other not with their solo songs. If solo is benchmark then everybosy has done a good job. For e.g. 1. Tum bin Jaou kaha 2. Ek mahal ma chhamchham karti 3. Jum premi prem karna.

    All above songs sung by Kishore and Rafi but Kishore was far ahead of Rafi. I know It hard to believe for Rafi. I believe both are great but if somebody says Rafi is great then i remind them.

  48. nasir ali says:

    The above article is very pleasing and does justice to the all-time great Rafi Sahaab. But… i dont agree with the comment that in the 50’s Rafi’s voice was feeble… In fact it was rich. Please dont mind my lack of expression; but i have been hearing all his songs and living thru those decades. Yes.. the Tera Khilona toota Balak.. does not appear’s to be of Rafi. But then immediately, in Dillagi, and other movies of 50, Rafi is at his best.. Among the movies of 50’s, take the songs of Baiju Bawra, Deedar, Udan Khotala, Aan, Kaala Paani, Kala Bazaar, Tumsa Nahin Dekha, Jagruti, ChandraKanta, Madhumati and many other less known movies.. Are not those songs unforgetabble.
    The sixties appear to be his zenith. Songs of Dosti, Mere Mehboob, Guide, Jab Jab Phool Khile, Kohinoor, Professor, Jab Pyar Kisise Hota Hai, Kaajal, Dhool Ka Phool, Sasural, Sangam, Ram Aur Shyam, and all the movies starring shammi kapoor and Rajendra Kumar. Who can forget those songs, their lilting quality, their vibrancy, their amazing energy, range, etc.
    But what i like best personally in Rafi Sahab’s songs is his rendering of the words – which I find in no other singer. It is this rendering which makes the songs come alive. (e.g. Taaareef Karoon Kya Uski; Hai duniya Usiki….etc.)There is lots more to say. But gotta sign off.
    My lots of Dua for his Soul and prayers for paradise.

  49. Bonifacius says:

    Great article. I am just sad I dont know how to reply properly, though, since I want to show my appreciation like many other.

  50. Naveen Zalpuri says:

    A Rafi fan is always more than pleased to learn that Rafi is still regarded as the benchmark and is one and only one singer in the Indian Subcontinent whom others big ,medium or small are generally compared to. I have seen people debating over Rafi versus Mukesh, Rafi versus Talat, Rafi versus Manna and in last 30 years Rafi versus Kishore and now it is pleasure to see debates on Rafi versus SPB or Rafi versus Yesudas. And a common thread is that all of the artists themselves consider/considered Rafi as a benchmark.

    Long live Rafi

    Naveen

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