Rafi versus Kishore- The Rivalry That Never Was
By: Jagat Kant Choudhary
Kishore Kumar and Mohd Rafi
It was inevitable. The Comparison. With two phenomenal singers like Mohd Rafi and Kishore Kumar dividing the lion’s share of the male playback music industry between themselves, it was only a matter of time before the big question would crop up- who is the better singer?
The huge fan following, bordering on reverence for the two singers coupled with the alleged preferences of certain music directors for one over the other, often triggered this question. However and fortunately so, while the fans swore by their respective idols, and still do, there has never been a clear polarization either in the fan following or the music industry as a whole.
Rafi and Kishore share the microphone:
For all the debate that went around in the outside world, the relationship between Mohd Rafi and Kishore Kumar was amazingly healthy at professional level. In an era where some of the biggest stars of the film industry were hesitating or even refusing to stand in the same frame with each other, the Rafi-Kishore duo never hesitated to share the mike with each other.
The song “Bane chahhe dushman zamana hamara, salamat rahe dostana hamara” from the film Dostana in the year 1980, turned out to be a great hit. The song provided the film script with a perfect background to weave a story of fallout between the on screen characters played by Amitabh Bachchan and Shartughan Sinha.
Earlier in 1975 Rafi and Kishore produced the boyish and pacy duet “Chal Shuru Ho Ja…Sa Re Ga Ma” in the film “ Chupke Chupke”. The song was picturised beautifully by Hrishikesh Mukherjee on Amitabh and Dharmendra. The same stars were a hit together once again in Ram Balram in 1980, with the song “Ek rasta Aha Aha”, sung by Kishore and Rafi.
The K.L.Saigal influence
If there was one most important similarity between the two great singers, it was the fact that both were originals to the core. During the four decade long career neither singer was ever accused of imitation, nor did they ever cross into each other’s territories. This did not mean that they were never influenced by any singer, contemporary or otherwise. Like most singers of that time, this duo was also greatly influenced by the legendary Kundan Lal Saigal, who had already passed away by the time the two came to terms with the microphone.
While Mohd Rafi considered himself fortunate to sing just a couple of lines with Saigal, Kishore Kumar referred to Saigal as ‘guruji’ and would never sing his songs. Rafi for one, had a voice of his own and the little influence that Saigal had on him, showed only in the first few songs that he recorded. Very soon he would break away from the mould and take playback singing to a higher octave.
Kishore was younger of the two, born on 4th August, 1929 almost 5 years after Mohd Rafi. He, however, started his career as an actor in 1946, almost at the same time as Mohd Rafi launched his singing career. By the time Kishore Kumar recorded his first song in 1948 for Ziddi, Mohd Rafi had already established himself as an upcoming singer of great merit.
The maverick that he was, Kishore Kumar dabbled between singing, acting, writing and producing films and yet managed to keep himself aloft as a singer of great caliber and promise. Kishore Kumar tasted early success with “Qusoor Aapka” in 1951 with S.D.Burman. The song was a hit and was marked with the characteristic ” He He, Aha Aha, Ho Ho” that was to later become the Kishore Kumar trademark.
The Popularity Charts: Together on Top:
At a time when the radio was the king of entertainment, Radio Ceylon came up with the first ever countdown show of Hindi film songs titled “Binaca Geetmala” with Ameen Sayani as the first and the most popular ‘Radio Jockey’ ever in India. The methodology of selecting the songs was quite transparent in the sense that the programme would take into consideration the sale of records of the song and also the number of requests by ‘listener clubs’ or the ‘shrota sanghs’. And week after week ,close to a million people would sit around their radio sets even as Ameen Sayani would take off with his customary “behnon aur bhaiyon….” No doubt, Binaca Geetmala was a pioneer in ranking the popular Hindi songs and therefore the popularity of the singers as well.
Between 1954 and 1976 a string of Rafi/Kishore songs (solo/duet) topped the charts.
| Year | Song | Singer |
|---|---|---|
| 1956 | Aye dil hai mushkil | Mohd Rafi |
| 1957 | Zara samne to aao chhaliye | Mohd Rafi |
| 1959 | Haal kaisa hai janab ka | Kishore Kumar |
| 1960 | Zindgi bhar nahi bhoolegi | Mohd Rafi |
| 1961 | Teri pyari pyari surat ko | Mohd Rafi |
| 1962 | Ehsaan tera hoga mujh par | Mohd Rafi |
| 1963 | Jo vaada kiya woh nibhana padega | Mohd Rafi & Lata |
| 1966 | Baharon phool barsao | Mohd Rafi |
| 1971 | Zindagi ek safar hai suhana | Kishore Kumar |
| 1974 | Mera jiwan kora kagaz | Kishore Kumar |
| 1979 | Khaike paan banaraswala | Kishore Kumar |
| 1980 | Dafliwale dafli baja | Mohd Rafi & Lata |
If popular choice was any indication, the playback industry was ruled by these two prolific singers throughout the sixties and the seventies. Mohd Rafi stood the podium 8 times against the 4 by Kishore Kumar.
When it came to awards, and there were only a few in those times, the Filmfare Awards was the most coveted. It was instituted by the Filmfare magazine and had a mix of popular and critical flavor in it.
The category for Filmfare best male playback singer was introduced only in 1959 and upto 1968 it used to be a single award for both male and female singers.
| Year | Song | Film | Singer |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1960 | Chaudhvin ka chand ho | Chaudhvin ka chand | Mohd Rafi |
| 1961 | Teri pyari pyari surat | Sasural | Mohd Rafi |
| 1964 | Chahoonga main tujhe | Dosti | Mohd Rafi |
| 1966 | Baharon phool barsao | Suraj | Mohd Rafi |
| 1968 | Dil ke jharokhe mein | Brahmchari | Mohd Rafi |
| 1969 | Roop tera mastana | Aradhana | Kishore Kumar |
| 1975 | Dil aisa Kisine mera toda | Amanush | Kishore Kumar |
| 1977 | Kya hua tera vaada | Hum kisi se kam nahin | Mohd Rafi |
| 1978 | Khaike paan banaraswala | Don | Kishore Kumar |
| 1980 | Hazar Rahen mud ke dekhi | Thodi si Bewafai | Kishore Kumar |
| 1983 | Pag ghungroo baandh | Namak Halal | Kishore Kumar |
| 1984 | Hamein aur jeene ki | Agar tum na hote | Kishore Kumar |
| 1985 | Manzile apni jagah | Sharabi | Kishore Kumar |
| 1986 | Sagar kinare dil ye pukare | Sagar | Kishore Kumar |
Again, between 1960 and 1980, Rafi bagged 6 awards against 4 by Kishore. In fact such was the rate at which Mohd Rafi was producing hits, that his own songs competed with each other at many annual awards.
Besides, with the exception of probably ‘Sagar Kinare’, the award winning songs between 1981 and 1985 were pedestrian by Kishore Kumar’s standards. Clearly the golden era of Hindi music was behind KK and in a world without Mukesh and Mohd Rafi, there was virtually no competition worth its name for Kishore Kumar to deal with.
Different Personalities:
At personal level, the two singers were very different people if not exactly the opposite. Kishore Kumar had the reputation of doing the unthinkable. He would tease a journalist by talking to the trees and plants, drive to a producer’s house and then shout at the top of his voice for the money that was due to him. He would invite a producer to have a chat with him inside a cupboard and then lock him inside because the producer had something to do with his income tax mess. In effect, he was such a busy man that one wondered as to how on earth he got the time to record those wonderful songs.
Kishore Kumar married four times and each one had a story of its own. Despite his so called miser and eccentric ways, the industry never doubted his tremendous potential to create hits out of the ordinary and to create master pieces out of the seriously good stuff. As many were the stories about him, name, fame and money came in equally good measure and Kishore lived life the way he liked and on his own terms.
Kishore Kumar and Mohd Rafi
Mohd Rafi in contrast, was all dedicated to his singing career. Life for him was limited, from home to the studios and back to home. He had an impeccable reputation in the industry and people swore by his name. He was known to sing for a token amount of one rupee for the producers who could not afford to pay his fees. Rafi was a happily married man with beautiful children in whose company he spent all the time outside of the studios.
As One King Treats The Other:
If Rafi and Kishore were the Lions of the music industry, they behaved like ones. Not only they respected each other but also never crossed into each others’ territory. Both were versatile and there were no limitations to their range and ability. While the producers and music directors did have their preferences for a particular singer, neither of them was ever accused of lobbying with them for work. Far from the one-upmanship norm of the industry, Kishore Kumar invited Mohd Rafi to sing for his directorial venture “Chalti Ka Naam Zindagi” and Rafi reciprocated the fraternal gesture by charging just a token rupee for the two songs that he sang for the film.
Interestingly, Mohd Rafi sang many songs for Kishore Kumar the actor. One of the most popular of these was the song Ajab hai dastaan teri aye zindgi from the film ‘Shararat’ wherein the music was scored by Shankar Jaikishan. The song which had two versions in the film became a huge hit and it once again underscored the superb control that Rafi had when he suddenly moved from the low to the high pitch.
When Rafi heard the song “Dukhi man mere sun mera kahna” he is said to have congratulated Kishore Kumar for doing such a fine job. Kishore Kumar was equally candid when it came to accepting his competitor’s prowess. On a number of occasions he is said to have remarked that only Rafi could sing the song. For instance, he sang all the songs for the film ‘Hathi Mere Sathi’, but when the climax song “nafrat ki duniya ko” came up for recording, Kishore Kumar put his hands up. “ Only Mohd Rafi and nobody else can sing this song”. So the song went to Rafi and it turned out to be the outstanding song of the film. In fact it was this climax song that gave the story line a meaning and offered Rajesh Khanna the opportunity to test his histrionics. The gentleman Mohd Rafi on his part, did not bother to know as to why only one song was given to him.
Rafi, the Yodeler
Kishore Kumar was a natural yodeler, having picked up the art as a growing-up boy, by listening to the Austrian records owned by his brother Anup Kumar. When he entered the arena of playback singing the music directors were quick to discover his potential and utilized it to the hilt. Kishore yodeled in the song “Piya Piya Piya Mora Jiya Pukare” from “Baap Re Baap(1955)” under music director O.P.Nayyar and then in a number of songs from his home production” Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi” (1958), under S.D.Burman. Kishore went overboard with his yodeling in another of his home production Jhumroo (1961), for which he was the lyricist and music director and his fans loved it.
By this time he was established as the official yodeler of Bollywood not only because he was very good at it but because in most cases the songs were picturised on himself and he had no problems giving perfect lip service to his own songs, both comical and romantic. It is unlikely that any other established actor would have risked this much of yodeling lest he got typed. But Kishore was Kishore and he did what he liked.
Yet again, and as it would come as a surprise to many, if there was any competition to Kishore Kumar at yodeling, it was from Mohd Rafi. Mohd Rafi exhibited his yodeling skill in a playful song “unse rippy tippy ho gayee” with Geeta Dutt in “Agra Road” (1957). He then yodeled in a style of his own in few films including “hello sweety seventeen” (1959) with Asha Bhosle in the film Doctro Z.
If yodeling was an art, Rafi had a perfect hold on it. Take for instance the 1962 film “Reporter Raju” produced by Homi Wadia and music scored by S.Mohinder. The young khan, Feroze does a la-Shammi Kapoor as he jumps all over the heroine wooing her with the beautifully sung “Chale ho kahan kaho kuchh to meri jaan kaho”. Many more songs of Rafi in the same mood would follow in the next two decades but this was a very special song. Rafi does a wonderful yodeling in the song and when he ends the song with the yodel he sounds exactly like Kishore Kumar. The natural ease with which Rafi has yodeled in this song is marvellous.
It is strange indeed, that Rafi did not choose to yodel in more of his songs which had plenty of scope and situation to do so. Whether it was his own decision or the restraint put by the music directors, his fans definitely were deprived of a very interesting facet of this endlessly versatile singer. Or was it the “territory” that he willingly left for the others to explore and benefit from? The inimitable Rafi had a hundred different shades to add to the colour of his songs and yodeling was only one such shade which he used with brevity.
With Rafi opting not to, Kishore made yodeling his second nature and his fans loved it. Through the sixties and the seventies, Kishore Kumar moderated his yodeling and the actual “Yudl – Ay – EEE – Ooooo” was often replaced by yodeling of the lyrics itself. The result was magical and the fans were eating out of his hand. The yodeling start to the song ‘Ye dil, na hotaa bechara‘ from Jewel Thief (1967) ” gave Dev Anand just the right mood to create a perfect net for his lady love who drives the car slow enough to let him catch up with her, even as he merrily walks through the song.
“Kitne Sapne Kitne Arman“, ‘Chala Jata Hoon‘ from Mere Jeevan Saathi (1972), and ‘Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana‘ from Andaz (1971) gave Rajesh Khanna the perfect platform to generate a mass hysteria that swept the country and crowned him the first super star of Bollywood.
If Rafi gave up some ground to Kishore Kumar in yodeling, he more than made up else where. Quawwali for instance was Mohd Rafi’s forte. Rafi teamed up with his contemporaries like Manna Dey, to create the unforgettable “Na to Karwan ki Talash Hai”. And then came the ultimate grosser of all times “ Parda Hai Parda Hai” from Amar Akbar Anthony. From the word go, Rafi is all magic in this quawwali and the energetic and dashing Rishi Kapoor takes it to greater heights with his splendid performance on screen. No wonder when mid way through the song, Amitabh Bachchan pulls out currency notes from under his jacket, many in the audience in cinema halls are said to have followed suit. Despite the presence of two other stalwarts like Kishore Kumar and Mukesh in the film, ‘Akbar’ walked away with most memorable song of the film.
The Charismatic Duo:
Kishore Kumar was a complete entertainer. He had a persona that the media loved to write about. He was a hit with his stage shows, not just for his songs but for his witty manners and the way he interacted with the audience. Rafi too drew huge crowds wherever he went. Only in his case, the greater reason for which people flocked from all over the place was slightly different. They came to ‘see’ him and to believe for themselves, that a man with the voice of God, actually existed on this earth!!!
Sri Pervez, the son-in-law of Mohd Rafi Sahab, narrated an interesting incident that occurred at a stage show of Rafi in Lucknow in the late sixties. Rafi was put up in the Clarke hotel there and when he came on stage, the crowd went berserk. One song after the other, and yet the appetite of the crowd was only growing. By the time the show came to an end the police had to resort to a mild lathi charge. Despite the lathi charge, however, the fans somehow managed to come up to the stage and mobbed a bewildered Mohd. Rafi. Suddenly a number of hands lifted Rafi in the air and for a while he literally floated in the air from one set of hands into another set of hands and he virtually went out of the hands of the organizers !
Fraternity wins over Competition:
The blank faced Kishore Kumar at the funeral of Mohd Rafi said the story of a lifetime bonding between the two legends of the music industry. For the pen crazy media that often mocked at his miser ways, Kishore Kumar was magnanimous with words when he paid tribute to his fellow singer. “ Rafi Sahab was a great singer. I stood no competition with him, he was a much better artiste than me. I sing in a couple of ways but he used to sing in hundreds of ways, that is why he will always be with us”.
His own sky high reputation as one of the best singers in the industry not withstanding, it needed a lot of courage to say what Kishore Kumar said. His words reflected the genuine appreciation that one great artiste had for another, irrespective of the portrayal by the media and the fans.
In the so called lean phase of Mohd Rafi during the early seventies and when much was being seen into his non-existing rivalry with Kishore Kumar, the father-son duo of Kishore and Amit were on a singing tour to London. Incidentally, Mohd Rafi was also in London at that time with his son who used to live there. Rafi invited Kishore and Amit to his house there and served them an exotic home made dinner. Throughout the evening Rafi and Kishore sang and recalled their initial days in the industry. Two of the best singers and two of the most wonderful human beings had crossed close to three decades in the music industry in admiration of each other.
The seventies belonged to Kishore just the way the 50s and 60s belonged to Rafi. But the Hindi Film Industry has always had room for more than one, even if the top slot has often been restricted. So when Rafi was on top there still were equally great names like Mukesh, Talat, Kishore Kumar and Mahendra Kapoor contributing handsomely to the rich oeuvre of Hindi film music. The same was true when Kishore Kumar hit it big time in the 70s.
There is an interesting story that the industry people have to say and which scoffs at all the stories about so called rivalry between the two giants of playback singing. During the 70s when Kishore was going great guns, emergency was clamped in the country and unfortunately he fell out with the powers that be on the issue of stage performances. As a result, Kishore Kumar was banned at the Radio and Doordarshan and not only Kishore but the producers and music directors were also hurt very badly.
At the same time, the stars were turning favourable for Rafi and he started giving hits. As an exemplary gesture, Rafi offered to take the cause of Kishore Kumar to the powers at the centre and even offered to do stage shows on his behalf. The Industry was stunned. Rafi was asked as to why was he doing such a thing, when suddenly the wave was going in his favour. The innocent and gentle soul that he was, Rafi is supposed to have said “ he (KIshore) is a fellow singer, it is his profession to sing and so why should he be punished for no fault of his “
And just because for a while, one of them was singing a few songs less than the other, some people unhesitatingly chose to give it the name of rivalry.
Competition yes, and it ought to be, in order to bring out the best, even if the names in question are as big as Mohd Rafi and Kishore Kumar.
Rivalry, NO WAY, NEVER.
Dear Rajan Singh,
One more thing to be noted is that till 1967 there was only one filmfare award for playback singer (either male or female). Also if you check the list, whenever the female won, the next best was Rafi, and more importantly the years when Rafi won, the competition was always with his own songs.
That shows the calibre of his singing. Truly the greatest ever.
rafi has a great sound variation quality..he sung desh bhakti, qwallies, bhajans , ghazals with perfection ..kishore kumar has limitation in these fields.. Rafi great sound quality can be observed between 1952 to 1970.. Rafi got lesser filmfare awards than kishore because.. These awards started in 1959 only..by the time rafi had already given superhit songs right from baiju bawra 1952 up to kagaz kay phool.. Upto 1969, there was single best playbacksingeraward d kishore kumar got 4 awards after rafi death..
Further to my above comments, I listened to Rafi and Kishore songs a bit more deeply and found there is a marginal difference in their singing.
First, Kishore mostly sings in loud pitch. He struggles when it comes to low pitch numbers, except a very few like – Khiza Ke Phool Pe Aati Kabhi Bahaar Nahin (I rate this as Kishore’s best ever).
If you guys listen to even sad or slow numbers, the pitch he keeps is high. This is because he is natural in loud singing and hence even in sad numbers, he maintains a bid louder pitch, so that the song doesn’t slip in to sounding bad.
This is like an attacking cricket player who is natural attacker and when faced with the situation to slow down struggles a bit, and finally he opts to attack than defend. A bit like Sehwag.
So, if he gets his way he scores a century or gets out in a zero. However, even in getting century his style is flawed and awkard, which can only be seen by an expert. But, to the local crowd the fours and sixes mattered.
Hence, in most slow numbers, Kishore pitched in louder and while most have went on to become huge hits, the experts find the flaw in sound variations, or say, the experts feels it is not perfect, but the what matters is that the song is a hit.
Rafi on the other hand can raise and modulate his voice in any pitch. This is the major difference and here Rafi wins hands down. Some of his songs are so brilliantly sung that if you listen carefully, you will stand up and salute.
Just like a great player like Sachin who adjust his stand and can play/score any mode as per the requirement- slow, fast, superfast. Whatever.
Rafi can be thus be said to be the Sachin and Kishore the Sehwag of Indian music.
At the end of the day, I listen and enjoy both, just as a i watched Sachin and still watch Sehwag.
what is your age Ganesh Sharma and how many songs of Kishore Kumar have you heard . And how many songs of Rafi saaheb you heard – to make comparisons.
To us Mohd Rafi is the Biggest singer and Asha Bhonsle Never lost an opportunity to sing with Rafi Saaheb. Asha herself said recently that Sanjay Dutt sings like Kishore Kumar.
So Sanjay Dutta is a powerful singer vis-a-vis Kishore Kumar.
By the sale of cd’s, songs on radios, music events – mohammad rafi “Outsells” every one and the day will not be far off when he is declared the Greatest Singer of All Times.
Youngsters listen to Rafi Saaheb and polish their singing as the other singers song anyone can easily sing. Try singing them. You may succeed.
Mean time live in an imaginary pond and listen to your favourite singers.
no doubt kishore kumar is a better signer. the songs he sung for rajesh khanna, dev anand and bachan saab are un matchable.
If you ask for an honest opinion, Rafi was surpassingly brilliant till 1966. After that his voice somehow began to lose that impeccable quality and kind of, opened out. Kishore came in at the right time when Rafi was going a bit stale in 1969-70. Later, Rafi made a comeback of sorts but I still feel Kishore remained the No.1 singer through the decade. Rafi had begun to assert himself,yes, by 1977 but right until his demise in 1980, it was a protracted battle for him to reclaim the No. 1 slot from Kishore, which sadly did not happen. The Emergency bit about Kishore getting banned is nothing but hyped for soon after, the Mumbai producer fraternity approached the powers-that-be and got the ban lifted. Losing out on Kishore’s voice was something they could ill-afford at that stage.
Of course, all of this does not take away the fact that Rafi was one of the greatest voices ever heard not just in India but the world over. Kishore too was brilliant in his own right. Who was best of the two is hard to tell for each of them qualified to being so, when judged on different parameters. Like Rafi had the range & versatiltity while Kishore had the power & command of voice.
Most says even ( Lata, Sonu Nigam etc) Mohammed Rafi is the best singer. I am sure they know what thy talking about. They know the tune of music. But for me I find Kishore voice is more loving. Kishore could sing any type of sings. He born with talent unlike Mohammed Rafi. Mohammed seem to me very good only sad songs. Funny Song does not go for Mohammed Rafi. Kishore was good any kind of songs. In the end it all comes to what each of our ears like. I love voice of Kishore da more than Mohammed Rafi. To me one Kishore da song = 1000 songs of other singers.
iam completely agree with my friends from those who give their articles.
there is no comparision b/w rafi sahab and kishore da.rafi is a great singer. the voice quality of rafi sahab has no comparission .rafi sahab is a complete singer. nobody from past, present,or even future will able to touch the singing level of this great singer. there is only one complete singer whatever its classical, folk or any other thing only rafi sahab could sing that.
when we take two songs sing by rafi sahab ‘first chahe koi mujhe junglee kahe’ from film junglee and other from film abdullah 1980‘maine poocha chand se’are quite different.how can any singer like kishore kumar can sings those two complete different type of songs. i don’t says kishore is a bad singer but he cannot touch rafi sahab. kishore couldnot sing classical songs.so i requested please never compare rafi sahab from any other singer.
How some people say that Kishore da was a better singer than Rafi sahab. These people have actually not heard top numbers of Rafi sahab from 50s and 60s. Kishore da was a very good singer, but behind Rafi sahab.
People, who are between 35 and 55 have seen Kishore Kumar era. Rafi sang less songs in 70s and died in 1980. Kishore sang more songs in 70s and continued singing till his death in 1987. So Kishore da is fresh in the memory of large number of people. But if we talk to the people who are 60 or above, we see most of them prefering to listen Rafi Sahab numbers.
Rafi sahab was the most verstile singer. He had got the most melodious voice. So far ‘sur’ and expression is concerned, he was ahead of even great Lata ji. Can we imagine Kishore da singing Suhani raat dhal chuki, O duniyan ke rakhwale, Tu ganga ki mauj, Chal ud jaa re panchhi, Khoya khoya chand, Husnwale tera jawab nahin, Janebahar husn tera, Fir miloge kabhi, Abhi na jao chhodkar, Tujhe jivan ki dor se, Tere bin suni nain humare, Madhuban me Radhika, Din dhal jaaye and Saathi na koi manzil the way Rafi sahab has sung these numbers ?
Very good article.
Must read for all Rafi”s and kishore”s fan.
What a brilliant article. It covers each and everything perfectly.
Guys, check out the link on the interview with OP Nayyar, it is brilliant on Rafi, Kishore, Lata and Asha, and others…….what a guy, who speaks directly on the egos and fighting that happened, along with his own ego…..check it out – http://my.opera.com/rafisaab/blog/2007/11/03/interview-of-op-nayyar-by-d-mandar-for-cinema-sangeet
How can a super legend like Rafi have a rival. The bottom line is the success of kk was good for his bank balance (ask the tax office who kept approaching him for tax evasion) and nor for hfm. Rafi was the key building block of hfm, an evergreen legend that reigns supreme to date.
If making lots of money is a benchmark for competition then surely kishore upstaged Rafi but if quality was the benchmark then kishore was a non starter.
No doubt the Rafi Sahib is one of the greatest in singer in the history of sub-continent so far. I believe that no one born in the comming era and compete this singer.
Dear musiclovers,
All gentlemen on this thread who are reading me, I want to bring something to light. You must have noticed that the kind of songs and music that are being made today. Its a shame. Quality music is dissapearing.
I think the only way we can help improve the quality of music today is to educate our children with good quality songs. We should expose them to the khazana of music that our predecessors legends have left us with . I have noticed that youth today does not even know about legends like Rafi saab, Kishoreda and Mannadey. I mean, literally young generation doesnt even know the “names” of our legends. Infact, they find it old-fashioned when an old melody is played in front of them. Why? Thats because they have never been taught about these legends by their parents. Its very shameful.
I think the only way is to expose our children with this quality music at an early age, so that they develop an interest and love for these legends. Its then that they would be able to understand that whats quality music.
I hope all of you gentlemen here are with me for this cause. If we want to preserve our music and prevent it from getting effected by westernization then, we all need to do our duty and propagate this into the life of today`s generation.
Thanks and Adaab!
Fazal
post 87 & other kk vakt posts. i agree totally dat kk is d greatest singer,but its seen dat even 5 yrs old r singing kk’s any song ezyly.saw shaan’s comment dat kk’s song ezy 2 sing but he’shesitant 2 sing mr’s song becos of mr’srange & skill.seen binod rathor’s comment on zee tv saregama dat he was a big fan of kk but now he is listening mr’s songs;’saat suro se kaise khele jate hai” o sikh rahi hai.i hope no more comments rnecessary.
you wrote
“KK too was highly professional”
by professional if you mean money-minded or mercenary then certainly kk was professional. but, otherwise he was far from that. he had no dedication to his work. just like his mentor rdb, they both combined to destroy hfm. they had a deep-rooted sense of casualness. consequently, very few of their songs had any quality. but, in case some looked melodious, that too was just limited to mukhdas, because they would run out of patience by the time mukhda was completed. this was the most unprofessional pair hfm had known till then.
“rafi sang too many songs and many are so similar. KK sang fewer songs but there was variety”
yes you are right, the songs of rafi were similar because there was quality and only quality. kk’s songs varied as they were ok, average, bad, more bad, worse and trash.
just saying that does not make sense and you have to give examples. if kk had variety or quality, his plight would have been better.
“KK could also sing Bhajans and Quwalis but Rafi dominated this area.”
that way every street urchin can sing any type of songs, but how well he can sing is the question. good mds looked for quality and they went for rafi and that is why he dominated this area like any other area.
“there were only around 10 songs KK sang for Salil which were highly difficult for Rafi to sing. What more can we say about KK. Just listen to all the Salil songs KK sang and you will know what I am talking about.”
i had given some facts in reply to your ‘guzar jayen din’ rhetoric. you want others to listen to these songs, have you ever listened to them yourself. then can you list the ‘around 10 songs kk sang for Salil’ and how did you test that they were difficult for rafi.
shikore [post 85]
you have not replied to my post, most probably because all your theories have been deflated. nevertheless, i would still go on to deflate your other baseless stories.
you wrote
“I am sure if KK was not busy with his acting career, he would have been the chosen singer by all the composers who used Rafi during this time.”
this has been another mindless and baseless theory propagated by kk fans just to defend his failure to make it to the higher grade for 23 years. facts tell us otherwise. besides roles in two films as child artist in 1935 & 36 he started with small roles from 1946. in 8 years upto 1953 he did minor roles in 10 films and they were all ‘b’ or ‘c’ grade films which take either years or just a few days to complete. this is the status of his being awfully busy in acting in his initial years.
during this 8 year period he sang 71 songs as per his database. of these 20 were from his films, 13 were recorded by sdb and the remaining 38 by other mds. so it is clear that he was initially tried by various mds, but was found deficient.
from 1954 his acting carrier took a different turn. though he was still in b and c grade films yet he got some lead roles and some supporting roles. 1954 to 58 was his busiest period. he got 31 films in this 5 year period. but that cannot be also said to be awfully busy, because small roles in such films dont take much of your time and people have done 20 to 30 films a year without feeling fully occupied.
on the song front, in 1954 he got 20 songs out of which 10 were for his own films 3 from sdb and the rest 7 from other mds. here his small honeymoon with other mds ended and he was not offered songs from this time onwards upto 1965 by mds other than sdb. though other mds recorded songs for kks films and they were all awfully busy mds yet they did not find him fit enough for other films.
now everybody knows that rafi playbacked for 11 songs of kk. but, very few people know that kk had to face the ignominy of being playbacked by batish. this happened in 1956 film bhagambhag [md - op nayyar] produced by bhagwan and in which kk had a big supporting role, though the hero was bhagwan himself. in this film out of the 10 songs kk got only 2 duets with rafi and 3 other songs were picturised on kk of which two were sung by rafi and one by batish. the one sung by batish was a semi-classical type duet in which rafi was singing for bhagwan. so kk was not considered fit enough for this and batish was brought in.
can there be any other proof of kks status in those times. this was the same op nayyar who got rafi for ‘man mora bawra’ in ragini in 1958. for this though some kk fans spread canards that op punished kk for being late. some also spread canards that kk initially protested rafi’s singing of this song but later when he listened to rafi’s recording he agreed. i am telling this to expose these canards and also to show that he was in no position either in 56 or 58 to dominate recordings or refuse other singers to playback for him. what to talk of rafi, even batish had sung for him in 1956.
in the light of these facts it is for you to show how kk was awfully busy in acting. though none of kk fans have categorically claimed that kk refused other mds to sing songs due to this nor has kk himself claimed this.
i will continue with other points in my later posts.
Mr Bhagchandani,
You assume that Rafi sahib would have dominated the 1980′s but can never present it as a fact because he had passed on by then thus indeed this view it’s an ASSUMPTION of your imagination!.
Pug ghungaroo bandh can be partly described as a qawwali…here lies the genius of Kishoreda that he could sing songs that have no official title ie “bhajan, qawwal etc….
He was a creator forever experimenting where as MR was rather predictable.
Post 87,
There is nothing self-contradictory about respect an artist who one is not a fan off!
Kishoreda wasn’t a man much interested in singing religious songs as he once himself commented in an old interview. Rather he was an entertainer and did a great job off it!
I do consider many of his songs to be “classical” but then we’d disagree on what this term means! For me and million’s of others Kishoreda was indeed the best and always will be!
both r great singers. But the unique ability of Rafi to match the voice of the actor on the screen is seen in nobody to that extent. He would always ask abt who was the actor & accordingly modify his voice & style of singing.
besides he was the only singer with such a high pitch voice as in ‘O duniya ke rakhwale’ & many other songs without sounding shrill or harsh. His voice had the unique softness which kk didn’t have. He was also agood human being
Dear All Kishore Fans who are contributing on this forum -A BIG THANKS TO YOU.It shows that you do not have anything worthwhile to write on your so called ‘Better Singer than Rafi”-Mr.Kishore Kumar.You have time and again showed us and proved to us beyond doubt that there actually is nothing home to write about Kishore -The No.of articles on both these forums is a testimony to that and the Kishore forum is inactive since December 2010, so yes you all were expected here with your hate phrases on our beloved Rafi-we know very well that it is the only thing that you can do very well but without a final result which can prove ur genius’ supremacy.
Anyways i am posting here a copy of the comment that i had posted on your forum in response to Neel’s article regarding Kishore’s ghazals on 30th May 2011, i got a response to it on June 9th 2011.He has no doubt tried very hard to prove his masters supremacy over rafi saab and thats where you all lose the plot- you know in your hearts that what we are trying to say cannot be proved and its a fact that your guru did not have the ” Vocal Efficiency” of rafi that’s why you have to try all the harder to prove your point.Neel states names of films in which KK has done playback during the days when only Dev anand considered him for playback-and the list is so short that it cathe numbers can be counted on the fingers of your hands.Thats one point for his so called greatness,next he talks about Naushad and Salilda regretting not gving enough songs to KK in 50s and 60s-Now where else can you get such so called facts other than on the KK forum.So here is the comment i posted to Neels article-let us see what these KK ,fans who are out of jobs on their Home Turf , have to say in reply to my comment.As a final word yes there can be no rivalry between Rafi and KK -Well Rightly said rivalry is only among equals -You cannot compare a Torch (Kishore) with the Sun(Rafi Saab) .Period.
Thanks for providing us an insight into the ‘Ghazals ‘ sung by Kishore Kumar.You started this article on the note of sharing the ‘Genres’ which are famous for not being able to be sung by Kishore but you end up only focusing on the ‘Ghazals’ ,maybe you will post some other articles to prove your point.Or maybe you will not be able to because you will not find any quawwalis ( please do not tell me that ‘wada tera wada’ is a quawwali- its only having the theka and the picturisation of a quawwwali),any religious songs,any bhajans and classical songs.
You mention that Kishore was the most versatile of singers in the hindi film industry!!!! -and he could not sing all the above mentioned genres of songs-more better all music directors of the golden period of hindi film music did not find him worthy of even thinking about him for singing all these type of songs as well as the type of songs that you consider were his “Domain”-the funny songs.They chose him to sing these funny songs only when he himself was in front of the camera-no playback mate-so no singing for others.
This was the scene for 23 long years 1946- 1969 with all music directors-A Very Versatile Singer Indeed!!!! Your knowledge about the Aradhana songs is like half-baked cakes -SD fell ill critically during the making of Aradhana and thus RD came into the picture-subsequently Kishore entered the scene,the Rafi songs were already recorded earlier.You mention the use of Kishore by LP -yes LP did use Kishore but he used him as a weapon against RD -Removing a thorn with a thorn.Kishore got the choicest of songs from LP and the most different ,imaginative and creative songs which actually showed Kishore as a far better singer than he actually was-But still all Kishore fans are only Dumbstuck about Kishore songs with RD,in fact RD lost out to LP bcos of his overdependency on KK.And yes if you have got ur facts right you will not find any worthy songs from LP with Kishore except the songs from Karz.
You say this in you article as a matter of Pride “Only one minor hitch I can think of and that is no fault of KK. It’s been said before that whenever KK felt uncomfortable with a particular word(s) in a song or if he didn’t understand it, he would ask for it to be changed so he could convey the lyrics with the right emotion”.
If this is true and we all know that it is 100 percent true (He lost out the Title song of Ek Mahal Ho sapnon ka to Rafi -cos the Producer of the film and Not the “Music director” of the film found him incapable of being able to render the song as needed with the emotional content and the singing intricacies) ,still according to you and so many countless others like you-”He is the Most Versatile”-but needs a little bit of toning down here and there to suit his singing capabilities.Isnt that what you want to convey?
Better luck to you for your next articles.Hope you find something worthy to write next time.All the Best.
Post 87:
Hum kahen to wo assumption hai, aap kahen to sach hai. Wah Imran Bhai, what an argument. Anyway, the article of Telegraph was not the opinion of the writer, he just brought out the facts. The fact was that by 1980 Rafi was back at top as is evident from the number of hits he gave in 1979-80 (highlighted in the article).
In my earlier post I did say that Kishore’s voice had something distinct, the songs you mentioned (Pag ghunghuroo bandh etc.) are great.. Kishore specials. But he had limitations. And you have to see the overall picture. You have see the total gamut of songs in the entire career of both the singers. How can a singer who has no noteworthy contribution (of songs) in ghazals, qawalis, bhajans, semi classical genres be called better than the one who has many many gems in not only in above cited genres but in almost all.
Your statement “I don’t find Rafi sahib’s voice to be distinctive whatsoever yet respect to him for singing great songs” is self-contradictory.
Thank You,
J.K. Bhagchandani
Dear Shikore Shumar (Post 85):
If you find that all that I wrote in my earlier post as ‘without clue’ and confusing then the problem is entirely with your ‘understanding abilities’. But one point I would like to make: Your statement that music directors did not give many songs to Kishore Kumar due to his pre-occupation with his acting assignments is factually incorrect. It is the other way round. He took up acting assignments because he was not being offered songs. Understood? Get your facts right. Do you mean to say that mastroes like Naushad, Shankar Jaikishan, O.P. Nayyar, Madan Mohan, Laxmi Kant Pyare Lal etc. were stupid not to have discovered the talents of Kishore Kumar?
All other distortions you have written in your post are not worth responding to.
As usual you have made some sweeping statements without an iota of logic. Till date you have not addressed any point that have raised in my various posts.
But I did not know that your lack of understanding and confusion is so deep rooted in your psyche that you will even distorted my name. This is highly objectionable. Learn to address people in public forums.
Thank You,
J.K. Bhagchandani
the comparision between mohd rafi and kishore kumar is not practically possible and one should not attempt and waste time in this..enjoy songs of both the great singers with love and by admitting the fact that rafi is no 1 to 10 and all othe singers including kk etc follow after that..kk himself was honest in admitting the fact that rafi is much better than him and is”the best”–the reason being that he himself took rafi’s playback, had he himself been so versatile , he would not have–but no, kishore kumar was an honest music lover who understood the music and knew his limitations very well unlike the one who distorts the name of kishore kumar and uses it as his own name,looks like a joker- writes just for getting kick out of it..
Mohd rafi was there from 1940′s to till date, you said that kk was at the top from 1970 to 1977,but there real think is that rd was using kk more than mohd rafi but in 1977 rd back again to mohd rafi and his last film he used mohd rafi more than kk(shaan) kk never was at the top mukesh ji got awards in 1970′s and he gave play back to big B,kk never made a superstar but many superstars said they are because of mohd rafi,opn is one of the top music director in bollywood without using lata ji,naushand is also without using kk(only one kk song) when kk actors used mohd rafi voice the song was super hit but when mohd rafi actors used kk voice they lost there place…..
In list of votes there are 82 people from Indian music just count the votes for all 81 and mohd rafi alone we will find that mohd rafi got more than all together …
Post 83,
It’s a mere assumption for you to suggest that Rafi would have dominated the 80′s where as i insist that from the early 70′s onwards until Kishoreda’s death he was the main man regardless of Rafi’s absence or not! This is not to discredit MR for i agree that in movies such as “Amer Akber Anthony” and “Hum Kisi Se Kum Nehin” to name just two he did deliver the goods, tu is thara meri zindagi mein shamil hai from “aap tho aise na thay” is another latter year Rafi gem….
Kishoreda did have limitations in the sense that he couldn’t perform raag yet being a genius we see how versatile he was and open to experimenting, the disco qawwali pugh ghungaroo bandh from “namak halaal” could only be delivered by the great kk and no one else.
Without the contribution of Kishoreda through songs like”kora kagaz hai yeh mun mera” one rajesh khanna would never have been the great 1970′s superstar but just another face, prior to him dev anand similarly benefitted. I don’t find Rafi sahib’s voice to be distinctive whatsoever yet respect to him for singing great songs!
The article from the telegraph that you have posted is simply the view of the writer not divine revelation that we are compelled to accept!. I can easily insist in a newpaper that the planet is square, it wouldn’t make it a fact!
he is a god for me
Imran, looks like you are in the firing line now. Bhagoo is back in action with his long, confusing and totally Rafi biased writings. He has no clue what he is talking about and is just focusing all his energies on how great Rafi is. He should realise there are other better singers too like Kishore and should appreciate his songs too. All this RDB, SDB preferring KK is nonsense. These composers were highly professional and they knew KK knew the pulse of the audience and KK had the knack of suiting all the hero’s on the screen. I am sure if KK was not busy with his acting career, he would have been the chosen singer by all the composers who used Rafi during this time.KK too was highly professional. It is quality and not quantity of songs. Rafi sang too many songs and many are so similar. KK sang fewer songs but there was variety. KK could also sing Bhajans and Quwalis but Rafi dominated this area. Kishore sang his best with a tough composer like Salil Choudhary who initlally did not consider Kishore for his songs but eventually had to concede due to the brilliance of the way Kishore sang his songs. There were only around 10 songs KK sang for Salil which were highly difficult for Rafi to sing. What more can we say about KK. Just listen to all the Salil songs KK sang and you will know what I am talking about.
Forgot to mention that the article of Telegraph, Kolkata whose excerpts I copy-pasted in my last post was published sometime in 2005.
Dear Imran (Post 79):
Your reply is as evasive as is expected of a mis-informed and ignorant Kishore fan.
Thank you very much for realizing that infusing sense in a biased Kishore fan is equal to delivering a tedious lecture, but trust me I have no qualms in taking that path. Also it was nice to know that you are aware of the fact that Rafi sahib worked with many other music directors. I wish you use this knowledge more creatively and objectively (rather than resort into an ill-conceived rhetoric) and analyze as to why Rafi saab in his prime time gave us such diverse gems in all possible genres of film music that one can think of than any other singer? Why Kishore could not sustain his dominance beyond 6-7 years (from 1970-1977)? Rafi had been unchallenged for nearly 20 years. Not only that he came back with a bang in 1977 and was on his way to the position he actually belonged: No.1. In this regard let me copy-paste below an excerpt of an article published in ‘The Telegraph’ Kolkota:
“…… and finally, in 1977, Rafi proved once again that (he was) Hum Kissi Se Kum Nahin. In the film, all four songs sung by Rafi became superhits: the title qawaali, Kya hua tera vaada (which fetched him the Filmfare Award after a break of nine long years), Chaand mera dil and Yeh ladka haaye Allah.
The year also saw the rage of Laila Majnu (in which he sang all the songs of rising star Rishi Kapoor, too) under the baton of Madan Mohan and Jaidev; and the third and second ranking in Binaca Geet Mala finals that year were: Meri Mehbooba (Dharamveer; Laxmikant-Pyarelal) and Pardah hai pardah (Amar Akbar Anthony; Laxmikant-Pyarelal.) In 1978, LP’s Apnapan got Rafi a Filmfare nomination though eventually the song landed up with a lyric award (Anand Bakshi) instead ? Aadmi musaafir hai. And now look at 1979-80! Just when Rafi had made a complete comeback he had gone! Laxmikant-Pyarelal gave him all seven songs in Sargam (four solos, three duets with Lata) and walked away with the best music award, all seven being top of the pops. They gave him four out of six in Suhaag (the other two being Asha) and they have been raging through the Binaca Geet Mala. They gave him five out of six (the other being Lata) in Aasha and did well enough.”
Needless to say that writer of above piece is far more knowledgeable than you. So it can safely be said that your contention that Kishore was gradually taking over in late seventies is not correct. It is the opposite that is true: that Rafi was gradually taking over and by 1980 he was almost there. As far as Kishore dominance in eighties is concerned, it was obvious, with Rafi gone, with no competition, that was bound to happen. That is why I consider 80s dominance of Kishore out of this scope of discussion. So in real sense Kishore dominated the scene for only 6 to 7 years. And that credit certainly goes to him. To upstage a giant like Rafi is an achievement no one (no Rafi fan) has ever denied.
It is to be admitted that Kishore’s voice had something special, a natural flair and spontaneity, but at the same time it had limitations. Once his entire range was fully used by R.D Burman, the creativity and growth factors suffered. R.D. Burman also had to go back to Rafi. In fact R.D Burman under-utilized his immense talent by over-depending on Kishore. In the process during the Kishore-era, many genres like bhajans, qawalis, patriotic songs etc. were on the verge of being ‘extinct’ as non of these genres were Kishore’s home-ground.
And finally.. coming to your point of ‘who is more popular?’, I think you have been suitably replied in Post 80 by Mr. Ahamad Kutty.
Thanks,
J.K. Bhagchandani
Ref.79
kk slapped the gentleman who tried to insult rafi saab.that
slapping is meant for people like you.
as far as voting is concerned,”the most loved people of the
world” in musicians category,rafi saab got more than 1,13,000
votes compared to kk’s less than 20,000 votes.
in the web site of kk, one gentleman was commenting as one
kk fan is doing good in rafi saab’s site,so we all should visit
there and support him! what a shame?you people do not have
any other thing to do?at least to write some good things about
kk instead of writing foolishness?
Post 77,
As i have stated that people’s taste changes with generations and yes the Rafi v Kishore comparison is indeed similar to the Dilip/Amitabh one in the sense that they have both dominated the movie industry so get over your self-righteous attitude though i realise that Rafi fans suffer from a superiority complex.
Morever, i have not claimed to be an expert on Indian music so again you’re jumping to childish conclusions, emotions acting without the benefit’s of intellect!. I am fully aware of the fact that Rafi sahib worked with many other music directors so you need not deliver long and tedious lectures on this issue, the fundamental point is that Kishoreda has million’s of fans that your likes have difficulty in accepting because in your mind MR should never be challenged, please get over your MR bias!
You obviously have not heard of the word “image” like Amitabh has a reputation of making action movies yet has worked in social ones too! A policeman has the image of protecting the public yet there are many corrupt ones, similarly Kishoreji has an image of singing pacy pop songs and Rafi sahib sad ones though both have performed otherwise too.
Rafi sahib did perform well in the late 70′s but was gradually being taken over by Kishoreda, the maestro! It would be wonderful if we could have a vote on the subject to settle it for once and all, ask the current generation which one they prefer and you should receive and accurate response.
we should be thankful to the music directors and singers
who brought back the golden era of hfm after 1987.though
the rdb era had given some changes in the taste of music,
it could not last for a long time as music lovers could not
tolerate the western and speed music.as far as indian music
is concerned it has a deep root and nothing can beat it.
we are happy that music lovers again stood for melodies
and still it is continueing and it will last for ever through
dedicated musicians.after 3o years of the sad demise of
rafi saab people like him and his music because of the
unforgetable songs he rendered whoever try to sideline
him.
Dear Imran (Post 77):
Drawing parallel between Rafi vs. Kishore comparison to Dilip vs. Amitabh is out of context and totally misplaced. And more laughable was your contention that it was only Rafi-Naushad team that dominated in fifties and sixties. This one statement exposes the extent of knowledge (or lack of it) that you possess about Hindi film music. Let me enlighten you that teams of Rafi-Roshan, Rafi-Madan Mohan, Rafi-O.P. Nayyar, Rafi-Ravi, Rafi-Shankar Jaikishan, Rafi-Laxmi Kant Pyare Lal, Rafi-Chtragupta, even Rafi-S.D. Burman (to name a few) were as prevalent and hit as Rafi-Naushad in fifties and sixties.
You say “we didn’t want any more sad yet beautiful songs like “yeh duniya yeh mehfil” instead fast and fresh tracks like “zindagi ek safar hai suhana” that would make us feel happy and energized”. By saying so you are stereotyping not only Rafi saab but also Kishore Kumar. Rafi has innumerable number of masti songs to his credit. He was the king of Rock and roll. Please listen to all such songs and try to see a complete picture. In you post itself you have mentioned the ‘yahoo’ song. That is just one of many. Similarly Kishore has many brilliant sad songs to his credit. So to identify Kishore with fast tracks and Rafi with sad songs is display of ignorance.
Infact it was Rafi who monopolized the term ‘versatility’. His ability to capture the mood of the song, to fill it with the right expressions and emotions, adapt to almost all possible genres that one can think of (be it bhajan, ghazal, qawali, romantic, patriotic or any other type of song) ensured a perfect result.
Meanwhile I would like to repeat my query I raised in post 40 of this thread. Please go through the list of 5 Rafi songs that I have written in that post and tell me equivalent songs of Kishore. You can take your time. Because I know that the exercise is tough.
If in reply you are going to say that ‘those’ type of songs were out of ‘fashion’ in seventies and eighties, then only thing that can be concluded is that your interest and knowledge of music is ‘superficial’.
As far as your ‘firm belief’ (that even if Rafi sahib had lived until the mid 90’s he would not have been able to reverse the trend as his “yahoo” days were history) is concerned, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that Rafi had already made a stunning comeback in 1977, and by 1979-80 he had maximum number of hits among all male playback singers. Leave aside nineties, had Rafi saab lived for another 4-5 years, he would have decisively settled this issue. The momentum was with him. That is ‘my’ firm belief.
Lastly, one request: do not call Rafi fans arrogant. I don’t want to elaborate on it further at this point of time. Let me leave it at that.
J.K. Bhagchandani
Now it is a joke if you need to read something about KK you
have to visit the site of Rafi saab.after the death of kk it is
seen that the style of songs again changed for good music
as singers like Udhit Narayan,Kumar saanu,Mohamed Aziz,
Sonu Nigam came with very good melodies.I think Kumar
saanu has a better voice than Kk as far as melody is
concerned.
It is a fact RDB had given more chances to KK than Rafi Saab
during 70s and was interesting to note that Rafi Saab bagged
National Award and Filmfare Award for the same song ‘Kyaa
huwaa teraa waadaa” for which the MD was RDB.Even after the
death of Rafi Saab KK had enough chances to have good songs
but the limitations of his capabilities make him to sing songs
like “saagar kinaare” and other songs.I think he is the cause of
RDB’s failure in his last days as MD Anu Malik was once saying
he had seen RDB in a desperate manner to ask for a work.
We have seen MD LP had brought Rafi Saab for the song “Pardhaa
he Pardha” for the film “Amar Akber Antoney” as KK cannot sing
such a song.
Rafi Saab is the rarest of rare in certain ways are concerned.
Almost all singers from Bollywood sung in Malayalam language
except Rafi Saab but even without singing a single song he is
treated to be a singer of that state as he performed live
programmes in small towns in addition to big cities.The interesting
thing is all Bollywood singers songs in Malayalm became superhits
except the song sung by KK.One more interesting thing is Rafi
Saab is being treated in kerala in such a way from where a singer
like Yesudasji hails who got the maximum number of National
Awards – 7 National Awards (5 for Malayalam 1 for Hindi and 1 for
Telugu) As far as verslity is concerned nobody male or female
singer is there to have atleast 40% what Rafi Saab possessed.
The song “Sarjo tera” sung by him for Johnny Wlaker is enough
to prove it.To follow the body language and accent of the hero
and to sing in different style to match the heros not a gimmick.
That is why the veteran Mannda once told in an interview that he
will be happy if he could achieve at least 50% what Rafi Saab
achieved.
Above all the divine and decent life for a perfect gentleman how
it should be had proved by Rafi Saab during his life time.We had
seen KK was fighting with Midhun Chakraworthy for the cause
of a lady.Also fans of KK had to come to this site since there is
no activities in KK’s site and as far as the articles are concerned
it a came a standstill since long back.It clearly shows there is no
subject to tell about KK.
Kishoreda may have had the ability to play a certain instrument but unlike Rafi sahib he was not trained to sing by various ustad’s that makes him a natural.
Comparing the two is similar to debating over Dilip Kumar versus Amitabh Bachchan, both ruled Bollywood for decades yet an honest analysis would suggest that Amitji has greater staying power partly due to being more versatile were as Dilip sahib was often stereotyped for mostly larger then life roles!. Similarly, Rafi and Naushad ruled the roost in the late 50′s & 60′s singing many great songs for Dilip Kumar in particular, later he sang for the likes of Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor leading to the early 70′s when gradually the mood of the public was changing!
We didn’t want any more sad yet beautiful songs like “yeh duniya yeh mehfil” instead fast and fresh tracks like “zindagi ek safar hai suhana” that would make us feel happy and energised. Kishoreda realised that there was a vaccum to be filled to cater for the younger generation so together with Rajesh Khanna and RD Burman dominated the charts from that period. It is my firm belief that even if Rafi sahib had lived until the mid 90′s he would not have been able to reverse the trend as his “yahoo” days were history.
Later Kishoreda mainly became the voice of Amitabh Bachchan and Rishi Kapoor’s pop songs, inferior artists of the time like Muhammad Aziz, Suresh Wadkar and the terrible Bappi Lahiri were never going to provide any competition for the great one!. It’s a story of generations with Rafi fan’s who are often so arrogant unable to accept that time had changed and that nothing lasts forever. KK and MR both had the ability to sing various types of songs from qawwali’s and bhajan’s to rock and pop music however being a product from the mid 70′s i can relate much more to Kishoreda’s music then Rafi sahib’s.
7. i agree with you on this one. kks voice quality was as bad in the golden era, as it was in the 70s and 80s and will always remain the same – that means equal for any era. and rafi doesnot need insomnia-prone people like you for appreciation of his voice quality.
8 .here also you have told the truth. rafi has followers in every town and village who try to sing his songs and emulate him and that shows his popularity. why you are so depressed that you say there are no kk clones (meaning followers). he has followers though not in the same number as rafi. your prophecy may come true in a few years when nobody would remember kk’s singing except some insomnia-ridden people like you.
9. kk was not a trained singer is the biggest canard spread by kk apologists who try to show him superior to rafi and this has been believed by rafi fans. kk received more training than rafi. i have the song of kk ‘koi hamdam na raha’ ( this is not gala-fadu, so you may not like it ) which was introduced by the great ashok kumar and he told a story that ‘kishore ka gala bachpan men chhil gaya tha aur bahut kharab ho gaya jo lagatar riyaz karne se kafi samay baad theek hua’. i have also watched an interview of anoop kumar on dd long time back, where he said that ashok kumar tried to teach music to anoop and kk both and employed many teachers and was very strict in this regard. kk received training but not the fruit of it because he was never sincere in anything. you may have heard the saying ‘kitna hi kumkum se poojo kaajal sindur nahin hote’. while rafi learned too much from too little training, kk could not. rafi has the magnanimity to acknowledge the persons from whom he learned, but kk never acknowledged his gurus.
10. This ‘guzar jayen din’ and salil praise for kk is the latest fad of kk fans. but, they speak without knowing facts. out of the 25 songs composed for kk by salil, 13 are from the films in which kk acted. salil came in contact with kk in 1955 and composed for 3 of his films between 1955 and 1962. yet, after discovering such a super talent in 1955 he did not give him any song in other films till 1971 and even after his so called great rendition of ‘guzar jayen din’ he forgot kk for the film rajnigandha which immediately followed annadata and also in many other films. After annadata he gave him just 4 songs 2 in jeevan jyoti in 1976 and then 2 in aakhri badla released in 1989.
secondly, here you are saying that the song appears simple but is complicated, which means you are praising kk for singing a complicated song. on the other hand when rafi fans tell you that rafi sang difficult and complicated songs, you say rafi was trying to show he was a trained and better singer.
11. your statement “But in terms of public entertainment, fan following, mass hysteria there is no Indian Singer apart from Kishore. This is what makes a True Legend” is an admission on your part that you seek legend status for kk not on the base of quality, but on sympathetic grounds due basically to his popular appeal.
12. you say that all the talk of rafi’s technical singing and highly trained does not make him a legend. technical singing, highly trained etc. are phrases coined by blockheads like you to bring kk in contention. no rafi fan has claimed that rafi was highly trained or a technical singer. and nobody needs your recognition of rafi as legend.
finally, to sum up, there is evidence of rafi singing a song which kk could not and also a number of songs of kk sung by rafi. but, there was no song which could not be sung by rafi and kk sang it. kk’s singing needed support of studio environment and back up of a lot of music. watch the live rendition of ‘mere sapnon ki rani’ which was the most important song of his career and compare it with his recorded version. on the other hand, rafi sang ‘suhani raat dhal chuki’ even after 25-30 years in concerts with the same authority.
rafi’s singing abilities raised the composing level of mds, while kk sought to bring their level down, which was not acceptable to the golden age mds who had better singers than kk available.
Rafi was far ahead of all other singers, while kk trailed all other contemporary singers during golden age. and when kk reigned it was the end of hfm. need i say anything more.
though some time has passed since shikore’s comments were posted by his accompalice chandrasekhar, and i had not replied fully because i did not think it necessary at that time, though i had posted some comments of kk fan in their site. but since the appearance of shikore himself and his boasting a la his idol kk, i thought i should post a proper reply.
firstly, i may make it clear from the outset that i believe in calling a spade a spade and am not one of those rafi fans who either out of modesty or for appearing balanced or diplomatic call kk also a great singer. though i listen to his good songs, yet to me, he was just a good singer. i fail to understand how a singer who could not produce songs worth remembering even equal to hemant kumar, who recorded about 1/10th of the songs recorded by him can be termed as great.
now, i will try to give a point-wise reply to shikore.
1. i dont know what is unusual style of singing unless he was singing with a voice emanating from some other orifice than the throat and what is unusual style of acting unless he was acting with a nakab always on. if you mean unique by that, then also everybody else had his unique style those days. kk’s acting and comedy was cheap, to say the least. but, i know there have been a lot of liking for cheapness in this country, which has increased with time. the comment about ridicules and teasing is filmy in character and you have made to gain sympathy.
kk got work in films quite easily, because of Ashok Kumar but, he made a mess of it. his fans lay emphasis on his songs being fun-filled, but how many are remembered. rafi sang more than 100 class songs for various comedians. neither kk is remembered for his quality comic roles or for quality songs. this should have been one style of singing where he should have dominated rafi. see the live concert where kk sang ‘mere sapnon ki rani’. there also his fans were shouting for ‘ina meena deeka’. the level of most of kk fans is so low that they always shout for ‘ina meena’ and ‘cat maine billi’ type of songs. perhaps rafi fans apprecite kk more than his own fans.
2. this is another argument without head or tail. if a person comes to film industry he has to follow some rules. the only places where he does not have to follow rules is either jungle or his own bathroom. even for singing in the street he has to follow some rules otherwise he would return with sore backside.
3.these are imaginary words quite unsuited to kk style of singing he alongwith rdb and bappi lahiri would be remembered for digging the grave of hfm.
4.his voice modulation was so great that he would sing in the same hoarse and gala-fadu and kaan-fodu voice even for anil dhawan and even asrani (remember the bawarchi song). i have not named other actors with soft voices for whom he sang in the same gala-fadu voice.
5.as per you, to try for quality is wrong and is an effort to show that one is better and to ruin a song is natural singing. on this analogy you would rate biswajeet or pradeep kumar better actors than dilip kumar or sanjeev kumar, because the latter two tried to improve quality of acting and they wanted to show them as better actors. whether it was rafi or kk or mukesh or any other singer they went to films to show their class.
by comparing them to sachin and dravid you have shown that you are one of those who dont remember what you ate the previous day. sachin uses helmet and gets hit on helmet about half a dozen times in a year. you should know that there were batsmen prior to him who never wore helmet against bowlers who were at least 20kph faster and there was no restriction on bouncers. you will soon forget sachin when he goes out of business and he knows that and is prolonging his career.
6. as you appear to be lover of gala-fadu songs, i would take that you rate 85% of kk songs as gala-fadu. there also you are wrong because kk had more than 95% of gala-fadu songs. your count of 45% for rafi is also based on an assumption that rafi might have sung 45% gala-fadu songs. i may tell you that he has NIL number of gala-fadu songs. you may find rafi songs boring but tell us what is technical as per your tiny understanding. you say rafi songs are a cure for insomnia. i may tell you that in good old days of golden music insomnia was not known or restricted to just negligible no of persons. actually, this kk kind of music is the reason for the spread of insomnia and you will be better advised to change your preferences before it is too late and you become one like shammi kapoor of film prince.
to be continued…
Kishore Kumar is the greatest singer in the same way as RD Burman is the greatest music director.
/s
Kishore is a genius. Yes he could play the piano quite well. If you see his compositions like “phir suhani shaam dhali” he is playing the piano. Another rare bhajan song with Madhubala ” Baaje Baaje Baajere” we can see KK on the piano.
He had a uncanny sense of music in spite of the lack of so called training. KK never needed any formal training. He was born with it and was busy training all the singers around him how to sing and eventually ruled the industry for a long time
He is the only singer who truly entertained us. He used to ask his composers ” can I add some nonsense in this song” and the song turns out to be a block buster. A complete innovator, willing to experiment, understood the pulse of the public and the hero’s in the movie
Kishore brought glory, entertainment, freshness, innovation, class and popularity to the Indian music which needed this change from all the highly trained singers who could not adapt to the public demands and changes. Without Kishore, I wonder how our Indian Bollywood Music would have shaped up. He is the only successful male singer who could act, sing, compose, direct, write ect…..Even now we only hear re mixes of KK or his songs on TV serials or advertisements or public places. How come we do not hear any of the other singers songs? KK will fit into any era. My dear Rafians, this is the reality. Accept it gracefully
Imran – 67
I heard kishore kumar was good in playing piano – I remember this having read somewhere, so I think kishore too was trained, might be not to the extent of specialisation, but kishore had a knowledge about music, if we go by this fact.
Om shanti om was a big hit those days, I remember this song being very famous in early 80′s – Radio used to frequently telecast that song.
Post 69 – Mr. Vishal
Good post, nice to read.
Shikore shumar
Thanks for your post 66
I can understand the facts. As rafi was well popular in 50′s & 60′s than kishore kumar, one can agree with rafi’s influence to that period and one can also agree that songs in that era were great and hence the influence of rafi.
At the same time, despite the position of 50′s and 60′s one cannot forget that the 70′s and 80′s – the importance of kishore kumar was really tremendous – it was a wave in bollywood and sea change as compared to the earlier two decades. Rafi could never achieve his earlier status in 70′s – if a rafi fan feels offended by this true fact, one cannot do anything except feeling sorry for such fans. As one can notice that kishore fans have always a lot of respect for rafi for his hindi film contribution, it would be great if rafi fans too reciprocate the same feelings and sentiments towards kishore fans as well as fans of other great singers as well, as one has noticed a very lengthy and more or less similar type of debate earlier between rafi and a very accomplished legend of the south.
I really have appreciations for the author of this article – jagat kant choudhary ji, for his well balanced points on rafi and kishore – two stars of the hindi filmdom from 50′s to 80′s – evergreen.
Totally agree with you, Imran. The Rafian’s have become ruffians and cannot see beyond Rafi. They need to understand what we are talking about by reading all my points again and again till they understand what I have written. They have picked up a couple of points and wasted their energy and time in bagging me. Don’t worry, as you can see I am not offended at all as I continue to write on this forum. These Rafi fans are slowly realizing the truth and hence are finding it hard to cope with the reality. Hence all the hisses and roars before they come to terms. Very typical behaviour
Thanks for appreciating my comments, Shikore. Indeed, KK was a great singer especially when we consider that unlike Rafi sahib he was not professionally trained in the art.
There are many songs like “Om Shanti Om” from the movie Karz that only he could have done justice too despite MR having been the more talented of the two!.
One can argue that MR ‘s Music was more meaningful and philosophical, by contrast many of KK’s songs were fun with hilarious lyrics that i personally enjoyed, his own optimistic and cheerful personality shined through. Often in a track he experimented spontaneously using his own words like “zara imaandari se…baaja…baaja!!” that was a rather unique thing!
Rafian’s often seem to be easily offended when they see another artist being praised so take it easy for no one is accusing your most beloved for being anything other then a genius!. I’ve often heard even the great MR giving credit to Kishoreji that should be noted by all and sundry!
Thank you Vishal (post 57) for your comments
TU HINDU BANEGA NA MUSALMAAN BANEGA INSAAN KI AULAAD HAI INSAAN BANEGA.TUNE DHOOL KA PHOOL MAIN YE GAAYA ZAMANE KO SIDHI SADAA RAH DIKHAAI.SADAA AIKTA PER TUNE GEET GAAYE MOHOBBAT KE PAYALE HAMESHAN PILAYE.TU MUSLIM THA LEKIN HQEEQAT MAIN SAQI TUJHE SAB SE PAHLE PASAND THI SACHAAI. NASHA HI NASHA HAI MAIKHANE MAIN DEKHO SABHI MAST BETHE YAHAN PE YE YAARO.RAFI KI DIWANE HUYE SAB NASHEELE JO SAQI NE APNI GAZAL IK SUNAAI.
For those visitors who harbour doubts about Rafi’s dominance in the industry, I’m quoting from Gregory Booth’s book “Behind the Curtain: Making Music in Mumbai’s Film Studios”:
“… there begin to appear the musicians – composers and singers— who would become the founding members, so to speak, of the generation that would dominate the Mumbai film-music industry for the next thirty years – playback singers Muhammad Rafi and Mukesh and composer C. Ramchandra… in 1944 and composer S. D. Burman (in addition to Mangeshkar) in 1946. Roughly three decades later, Rafi and Mangeshkar were still the dominant playback singers in Mumbai. Burman died in 1975, as his last films were just being released. Mukesh’s last film song was last released in 1976. Only C. Ramchandra had more or less retired from the film industry.”
JO WADA KIA WO NIBHANA PADEGA MOHMMAD RAFI TUM KO AANA PADEGA.TERA SAATH DENGE ARE TA QAYAMAT JINHON NE HAI TUM SE MOHABBAT NIBHAAI.KAHAN JAA RAHA HAI TU YE JAANE WAALE ANDHERA HAI MAN MAIN DIYA TO JALA LE.RAFI TUNE LAAKHON DIYE HAIN JALAYE MOHABBAT SE ROSHAN HAMMAIN RAAH DIKHAAI.YOON DHARMA NE GAAYA KISI NE KAHA HAI BURA MAT KAHO TUM BURA MAT SUNO TUM.RAHO MIL KE SAARE YAHAAN PE YE BHAAI KARO NA KISI KI ARE TUM BURAAI.
TERE BAAD TUJH KO ZAMANA HAI DHOONDE YE GAANON KA TERE KHAZANA HAI DHOONDE NA AWAAZ KOI LAGI ACHCHI TO MOHAMMAD RAFI PHIR TERI YAAD AAI.KAI LOG CHAHAIN KE FILMAIN BANAAIN TERE NAAM PER MOHAMMAD RAFI SUN. TERI YAAD MAIN DEKH PAHLE YAHAN PE HAI AMITABH NE BHI FILM IK BANAAI.RAFI TUJH PE ITNI FILMAIN BANENGI ZAMANE MAIN JAB TAK YE DUNIYA RAHEGI.WO AWAAZ TERI SABHI SUNNA CHAHAIN TUJHE DHOONDTI DEKH SAARI KHUDAAI.
RAFI DESH POORA…RAFI DESH POORA KARE YAAD TUJH KO YHAN PE SABHI KO UDAASI HAI CHAAI.IDHAR RO RAHA HAI HERO DEVANAND UDHAR DE RAHA HAI DILIP BHI DUHAAI.TUJHE YAAD KARTA RHEGA ZMANA HZARON BARAS TAT.DILON MAIN SABHI KE YHAN PE KHLEGI HMESHAN HMESHAN TUMHARI ZUDAAI.BARAS TEES TUJH KO GAYE KO HUYE AAZ POORE HMAIN CHODH KAR TU GYA THA YHAN SE.RKHA DIL SE TUJH KO LAGA KE HMESHAN TERI YAAD HAMNE KABHI NA BHULAAI
one thing that is learnt from the forum is that distort the spellings of a great singer , call yourself by that name and then write in a stupid fashion for fun and getting some kick by playing with emotions of rafi fans..even great singer kk would not have approved the style of this gentleman(?) who is criticising just for the sake of criticising.. kishore kumar himself had unconditionally approved of supremacy of rafi–and why wouldn’t he–afterall kk understood the music, he knew rafi’s unlimited range,his pronunciation of hindi,urdu and even sanskrit words, his alaaps,his soulful rendering etc etc..as suggested in one of the posts–the moderator should not allow jokers to be part of this forum–one whose intention is to get some kick, maja lene ke liye jo likhte hain –let such clones be boycotted.
Well written Imran. Clear and succinct. Appreciate your simple views rather than slamming my comments which others on this forum have done so for a while.
As written before which some don’t believe, I have met MR through his son and my father who was a musician in many SD burman, Naushad, Salil Choudhry songs. MR was a very pleasant man, god fearing, lots of family values and a simple human. His son was just the opposite
I could never meet KK (as my father said he was very difficult to meet and also very eccentric) But 2 years ago I went to his house through my Bro In Law and met Sumeet. I was able to video shoot KK’s house which I cherish. There were heaps of dogs all over the property which was not well managed. Very sad to see KK’s house in a bad shape. When I went again this January, there is some activity at his house and it looks better.
They were both great in their own way depending on the generation you were born in! Rafi sahib mostly sang sentimental and/or love songs where as Kishoreji was more into pop music as seen in movies like Aradhana…one “Mere sapno ki raani” comes to mind.
Rafi sahib’s untimely demise meant that Kishoreji was left unchallenged from the early 80′s to rule the Music scene with an iron fist. If i want to listen to a sentimental, romantic or religious track then Rafi sahib is the one where as Kishoreji is the man for pop or rock songs from the 80′s onwards.
Allah, Rabb and Ishwar all mean God… similarly Ishq, Prem and Mohabbat all mean love therefore comparing Kishoreji and Rafi sahib would be similar…they only differ on what we personally consider to be the divine force or great music!!
Kishore kumar is a great singer, otherwise how can he become popular in the 70′s. Agreed, rafi was popular singer in the 60′s but kishore was famous in the 70′s and 80′s. Rafi fans should know this simple fact. Unless kishore fans are convinced, how can they agree rafi is superior in bollywood. I agree with shikore shumar about kishore kumar’s importance in bollywood.
post 55:
There is no need to convince SUN is the brightest star, it is universal truth, in the same manner Rafi is the Legend, that’s it.
you seems to be a shameless person, go lick all the older threads and the comments therein, that makes you a little shy person before you pass on your filthy comments, keep all those boring and rubbish comments within yourself, do not expose, rafi lovers are peace loving persons and completely immersed in the songs of rafi sahab. go take care of your neighboring KK site which is almost dead a long back being no further fresh write ups and comments. you KK fans have no other job just to visit and pass your timepass useless comments on rafi forum. You are so stinking that no rafi lover want to respond you.
learn manners how to write a comment on public forum.
A rafi fan
Nice to hear that I have amused you all. That was the plan, boss. I read all your comments and felt bad as it was so dull and boring. I was able to ignite some fire in you people and got this forum fired up and moreover unite you all to fight me. I am pleased and happy now. Up to now no Rafian has convinced me that Rafi is better than KK. All I have read is comments against me and some feeble comments on Rafi. You guys have convince me. Come on Guys. Give me some solid stats and facts. Till then I will continue to believe that KK is the best Bollywood singer until proven
How come there are no females on this forum. Looks like only males like Rafi.
Keep up the spirit and keep the fire burning. Give me a tough fight.
C ya. Shikore Shumar
Shikore,
Learn to spell my name correctly. And yes, I never compared SRT & KK. I think you read our own post. BTW, do you think are we so dumb that we’ll believe that you went to God’s house??? Stop kidding us….Its a music forum not a comic one.
You have already amused us a lot by your stupid comments and analysis. I would request the moderator to block this guy from this post. He’s spoiling the environment.
at least in one thing i agree with shikore that bhagchandani ji should not have provided him with his list of 5 rafi songs, because, as per the famous hindi saying ‘bhains ke aage been bajane ka koyi fayda nahin hota’. the ears of people like shikore have been corrupted by continuous hearing of the hoarsest of songs on high wattage speakers. otherwise also, i will struggle to name 100 best songs of rafi, because there are thousands of rafi gems.
in another thread mr. haldar referred to a dev anand interview where he was saying kk was his voice, but asked to mention a song he referred to ‘abhi na jao chhodkar’. perhaps that is the plight of kk fans also.
though chandrasekhar chose to enlighten me about the sentiments of kk fans, which i never needed, but in the process he exposed himself and made clear where his sympathies lie. i visited kk site and found an interesting comment by a kk fan Neel Trivedi in his article ‘kishore kumar’s andaz-e-ghazal’ while discussing the validity of the song ‘sarakati jaye hai’ as a ghazal. the comment is given below : -
“It’s been said before that whenever KK felt uncomfortable with a particular word(s) in a song or if he didn’t understand it, he would ask for it to be changed so he could convey the lyrics with the right emotion.”
the above statement is coming from a staundh kk supporter who is trying his best to prove his ordinary songs to be ghazals and is an oft-repeated argument there. so they know that kk cant sing all the bols given to him. that is never the hallmark of a great singer.
now this great inability which i will call an ability of kk, of not being able to sing the bols or lyrics composed by the mds of the golden age kept him out of the recording rooms of all great mds except sdb. the perfect example of this great ability[?] of kk is the song ‘tu mera copyright’ in film shararat (the song is available on youtube) which was composed and picturised in the typical kk style but there were some difficult words which the md sj wanted to be sung in a style which kk could not deliver and thus kk’s lines were given to our own rafi. there have been discussions about ‘ajab hai dastan teri’ and ‘man mora bawra’ which were serious songs. but this one was in the domain of kk but even this he could not sing.
that was exactly the reason why kk was not even considered for male duets and qwaalis for which all the famous singers earlier mentioned including balbir were used.
on the other hand rafi’s great singing abilities allowed the mds to try the most difficult of tunes which they could not try with other singers (and everyone is included here). this has been said and repeated by those mds a number of times.
G’day Mates
Looks like Dr C has disturbed your wee little party by posting my comments on this forum
My comments have been taken so seriously that everyone has stopped all their activities and just want to write to me. I have become so famous suddenly. More than KK and Rafi.
Vishak’s comparison of KK and Sachin tickled me heaps
Keep this a secret: I have been to Mohammed Rafi’s house many times as his son and I went to the same school and class.
Yoodleyoo, Bro’s
Dear shikore,
It said about bollywood music it born in late 1940′s,was a child in 1950′s,young in 1960″s,old in 1970″s and died in 1980 so what that mean?
Post 42 and 44:
Mr. Shikore Shumar,
If only you had restricted you comments to just expressing your preference to Kishore Kumar, it was OK (after all everyone is entitled to his or her choice) but your continuance with the act of provoking the Rafi fans by using terminologies like ‘boring singer’ and ‘cure for insomnia’ for his songs under the garb of ‘comparing the two legends’ are sure indicators of sinister designs of your mind.
Read again your post that was copy-pasted by Dr. Chandershekar. You start with nice words ‘hello all. Very interesting debate here. Read a lot of your comments. Some were absurd and some were good. i think we need to end this non ending debate and have some sanity. Firstly both kk and rafi were good singers with exceptional singing qualities and should be respected for this. We cannot just condemn a particular singer and run him down. Both did well in their respective era’s and have moved on with no successors. The new breed is just trying hard to follow their footsteps… etc. etc’. The bottom line (as I understood) of this being ‘Please do not compare the two’ and then you go on to do precisely the same.
Are you not a bundle of contradiction? Till date you have not addressed this issue of king size contradiction that you have displayed.
In fact you have not replied to any point raised by me and others. You are simply going on and on with your rhetoric without an iota of logic, just brushing aside all points ignorantly and arrogantly. With every post of you, our doubts about you possessing a trouble-making mindset increase. It only reinforces our impression of certain Kishore fans whose sole purpose of being here or at Kishore forum is to display their wreched anti-Rafi psyche rather shamelessly.
As neither you know my age nor I yours, your advice to me to grow up peacefully is in a bad taste. Please do not write things filled with immaturities.
J.K. Bhagchandani
http://www.facebook.com/?sk=inbox&setup#!/pages/Kishore-Kumar-/19669595587
Dear Shikore ,I don’t think we have reply but I like to say one thing to you please click on the link of votes and you will find that there are 82 names from Indian music, count all votes for 81 singers and count votes of mohd rafi alone and you will find that mohd rafi votes more than all 81 singers together got…
Please give me few big names who said I am because kishore da or who said kishore da is best singer in bollywood?about mohd rafi the list is endless.
Rd who ignored mohd rafi he back to mohd rafi and he used mohd rafi voice more than kishore in his last film with mohd rafi(Shaan) rd is one of music directors who used mohd rafi voice on big B…jest count mohd rafi actors and kishore da actors or I can say ask actors who used both as Dev ji and Dharam pa….
Mr. Baghchadani, Mr. Vikram & Mr. Hans etc.
Brothers, I feel your pain! It is hard to keep silent when someone comes to your home uninvited and starts bad-mouthing your most revered idol. But it seems like you have been goaded into responding to some ridiculous statements.
Did you see the team effort here? One copies a post from another forum in which everything that has been said about Rafi Sahib by famous people has been copied but the name of Rafi Sahib has been replaced with another singer. With this replacement the statements become ridiculously absurd. Example, ‘his voice suited for every actor’. Really, for 23 years when the Bollywood music was at its peak, no music director thought so. The writer of this post does not have any imagination. He seems to have gone through this site and copied all those statements. He does not even have a real name. He just jumbles the letters of his favorite singer’s name to make up a name. No sooner the post has been copied to this forum, the writer of this nonsense appears amongst us. Sometimes some of our so-called friends bring a poodle that barks in its thin voice! No need to worry about it. Just disregard it.
I totally agree with Mr. Hans that rivalry is amongst equals. Here in my neighborhood we have two high school teams. One regularly beats the other – but supporters of the second team call the games between the two schools as the ‘rivalry game’. This year the fans of the first school wore T-shirts that read ‘what rivalry?’ I think it applies here too.
By publishing an article like this we unnecessarily invite such nonsense.
Mr. Shikore, I have no time to comment on your posts every now and then. As I said, you are entitled to your opinion and so am I.
Mr.Shikore Shumar or Whatever your name is :
I was going through the post for the past one hour and saw how this beautiful post turned into. What are you trying to prove here? Your comments are baseless. To be very honest, I thought your article will be interesting but boy you disappointed me. You should know that such kinda comments will make people laugh at you.
Coming back to the point, I agree that today’s generation loves Kishore Kumar and they do term Rafi sahab as ‘Bore’. But do you think they have any idea about music? These guys love songs which they forget the next day. For them Old means KK and trust me these youngsters don’t even have the capacity of understanding what real music is.
Oh yes! I remember some one pointed KK as Sachin and Rafi as Dravid. WOW !!! Hats off to him. This proves that forget about music, he has no idea even about Cricket. Can someone tell me how can KK be a Sachin?
Let me give you few points which will prove at least something to the so called KK fans:-
1. Rafi started his career in 1940s i.e. very very early, Sachin too
2. Rafi is GOD of Singing, Sachin is God of Cricket
3. Rafi can sing any song, Sachin can hit any ball
4. Rafi is super versatile, Sachin too (Tests, ODI &T20)
5. Rafi had a lean period (early 1970s), Sachin had it too (early 2000s)
6. Rafi came back hard with a vengeance and proved who’s the boss, Sachin did the same in 2010-11
7. Rafi has the maximum no. of awards, Sachin has it too
8. Last but never the least, Both are wonderful person, humble and truly a gentleman. And don’t forget, GOD wanted to Play cricket, He came to this world as Sachin, God wanted to sing, he came as Rafi sahab.
And he was comparing KK with Sachin. What a shame!
So, Mr. Shik&%&&@# whatever your name is, KK is like IPL or T20, fast, fun, lots of entertainment, IPL Nights, Parties, girls, hype, media. Rafi sahab is like 5 day TEST Cricket. The real cricket. Go and ask anyone what he/she likes and I bet they will not like TEST cricket at all. So, now you guys get why these stupid youngsters prefer KK over GOD???
And finally “whatever ur name is”, I am just 23 and trust me One more about my God and trust me swear on God I won’t hesitate. Get the shit out of here! Shoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vikram, you are stating that I am imposing my views on KK. After analyzing your views, I am concluding that according to you:
1. Rafi is beyond comparison
2. Rafi’s body of work is too wide
3. There is nothing he could not sing
4. he transcended all kind of singing genres.
5. You get goosebumps when you hear a certain song of Rafi
6. I also have my favorite singer
How different are your views from mine? You too are imposing your views on Rafi here and telling me and others that he is a better singer than KK
Then you go on to say a good song is a good song whoever signs it
So much contradiction in your write up is not right for us and does not make any sense. Be clear on your thoughts and writing.
Mr. Shikore, life is fun with a lot of things, including good music. It’s OK to like somebody, but it’s not OK to impose your views on others. In my opinion, Rafi sahab is beyond any kind of comparison with any other singer as his body of work is too wide. There is nothing that he could not sing. He transcended all kind of singing genres. You have every right to disagree with me.
Kishore da no doubt was a great singer, but had some limitations. This in no way means any disrespect to the legent for I am too small a human being to be judging somebody like Kishore da. Some of his songs or for that matter the best works of Lata, Manna Dey, Mukesh, Asha, Suman Kalyanpur, Mahender Kapoor and others are equally good. I have come across so many scorned Kishore da fans that use choicest epithets disparaging Rafi sahab. When people start doing that they have actually already lost the arguement. I hope you can spread some words of wisdom among such fans and tell them that it’s all right if others don’t agry with you.
Mr. Shikore, a good song is a good song, whether sung by rafi sahab or by Kishore da. Why are we wasting our energy and time in discussing someting to which there is no end. I enjoy Koi Humdum Na Raha as much as I enjoy Yaad na Jaaye Beete Dinon Ki. I get goose-bumps every time I hear Din Dhal jaaye and Kuchh To Log Kahenge. I like all good songs, irrespective of the singer who has rendered them. And yes, just like you I also have my favourite.
Ha Ha Ha…. What a laugh.Thanks for all the jokes to keep me entertained. I am luving it
Same old nonsense from JK. Just trying add fuel to the fire. His statements have no substance at all he is just trying to raise another non ending dispute with no quality evidence. There is no take home message at all. JK is not even close to convince me that rafi is better than KK. I am not going to bore him with my list of 5 best KK songs. It is too childish. My advise to him is to grow up peacefully and enjoy all the KK songs he has in his collection and then maybe he will understand me better
Vikram, I have yet to read your comments on this forum. I sincerely hope you have some better comments to write on this subject and keep sanity on this topic
KEEP KOOL GUYS. Life is fun with KK songs. (:
Mr. Shikore, to get a sensible feedback you have to write sensibly.
Post 39,
Every time I write on the topic of fans of Rafi vs. Kishore, I feel that I am now done with this topic. But somehow someone instigates me to come back to the topic. It has happened again. After writing the post no. 34 in this trail I had the same thought but now I see that this guy Shikore Shumar has arrived to this forum to ensure that the topic keeps going.
Since this guy has given himself plenty of certificates (like having an open mind, fully understanding the essence of both the singers Rafi and Kishore after ‘carefully’ listening to them etc. etc.), in the process declaring that we the Rafi fans are not ‘able’ to analyze his views properly, we are listening to only Rafi songs etc. etc., a reply to such provocation becomes inevitable.
Mr. Shikore Shumar, unlike you, I would not like to make any tall claims. But let me assure you that my collection of Kishore’s songs will definitely outnumber your. I have such rare songs of Kishore that you may not even have heard those. Apart from Kishore I have a vast collection of all singers like Rafi, Manna Dey, Hemant Kumar, Mukesh etc. I have been listening to these songs since my childhood. So after listening to all singers for years, and considering the total picture, it is my considered view that Rafi is the best (repeat ‘the best’). Meanwhile I am giving you only 5 songs of Rafi, please give an equivalent song of Kishore (in terms of quality, singing, musical content etc.):
(1) Man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj…. (Baiju Bawra)
(2) Tera husn rahe mera ishq rahe … (Do Dil)
(3) Kabhi khud pe kabhi haalaat pe rona aayaa… (Hum Dono)
(4) Hai agar dushman dushman…. (Hum Kisi se kam nahin)
(5) Dekhi zamane ki yari… (Kagaz ke phool)
I can give you 100s of such songs, but for you I think 5 are enough.
And let me tell you we are not upset by your so-called reasoning but are rather amused by the lack of it. My point in my earlier post (no. 34) was that copy-pasting of a post of another forum here is not a good idea. I stand by every word that said. Meanwhile if you care, do reply to all the points that I raised in my earlier posts. Just making sweeping remarks without substance is uncalled for.
J.K. Bhagchandani
Thank you Dr Chandrashekar for posting my comments on this site. Looks like JK, santosh are very upset with my reasoning. They seem to be a hard core Rafi fans and very rigid in their views. They have to read and analyse all the comments I made with an open mind to understand the core message. As mentioned in my article, I have heard both these singers carefully and made my comments. Maybe these folks are just listening Rafi songs all the time and have not heard KK songs at all and hence this dispute.
Take care and await a proper and sensible feedback
rivalry arise btwn 2 eqals,but mr cud sing any song whereas 4 kk songs had 2 b tailormade i.e,no classical no high pitch etc.anybody can sing any kk number,whereas many of mr’s songs r very tuff & some r almost unsingable.if kk is legendary then all singers r legendary.even with bro like asok kumar &relative like sasadhar mukerjee,i’d ve surpassed kk.i respect kk not 4 his singing but 4 his talent as a music director,lyricist etc.
i fail to understand why these idiots like chandrashekar are allowed to post their rubbish comments.These so called expert does not have any knowledge of music.Had he some , he would not have stated that rafi saab voice a cure for isomania.He has some insomania because he cannot digest that rafi saab’s voice was the one with divinity.Unlike kishore’s whose voice was good but not of that level.So Mr. Editor pl do not allow such morons to post their rubbish analysis.
Dear Bhagchandani ji and Ahmed kutty ji,
I never meant to project kishore as superior to rafi, only thing I wanted to highlight was sentiments of kishore fans and nothing else, in response to Mr. Hans post here. Definitely, there are some off track comments in the kishore fan’s post – which no one agrees- but that was not my intention. I wanted to just tell Mr. Hans regarding the sentiments of kishore fans – that is all. And both of you are well aware that I am a per se ghantasala lover and in hindi rafi as well, and but not a kishore lover in those lines, but only wanted to tell Mr. Hans that what he wanted to convey on this detailed article was not correct in my view.
Dear dr.chandrasekhar saab,
post 32
…..and moreover,kishore kumar continous to have a vast
following even today…..
if we read this comment and go to the respectful site of
kk we will laugh.no activities in that site now.first the
articles about kk stopped.then the comments.the only
activity was in the article “the fued between the fans of
mohamed rafi and kishore kumar.”it could go to
some extent since the topic changed to rafi saab vs.
gantsala saab as there was no subjects about kk
and his qualities are limited.now that also in a
standstill.
in one of my comments i have requested the kk fans
to write something about kk saab in his respectful site
instead of putting unnecessary comments here.it is
so pathetic and people will laugh at you,gentlemen.
Posts 30, 31 & 32:
To a large extent I agree with Abhishek ji views. But Dr Chandrashekhar ji, I don’t think it is good idea to copy-paste an ‘unwanted’ post of a Kishore fan from Kishore forum on this forum. I did not understand the purpose of such a post being reproduced here. The point you want to make is well known. Anyway, the content of the copy-pasted post only vindicates my understanding of some Kishore fans (and their forum) that I highlighted in 15 & 22 in this thread.
Let us analyze KK fan’s copy-pasted post. It starts with some nice words ‘……firstly both kk and rafi were good singers with exceptional singing qualities and should be respected for this. We cannot just condemn a particular singer and run him down. Both did well in their respective era’s and have moved on with no successors……’ and then goes on to contradict himself by:
(1) Comparing KK with Sachin Tendulakar and Rafi with Dravid and then concluding that Rafi a boring singer. He has gone on to say that Rafi’s songs are cure for ‘insomnia’
(2) Declaring that “kk’s voice quality and singing will fit any era of music compared to the other singer (meaning Rafi) whose voice will not fit even today’s era.”
(3) His point No. 11 almost is satirical in nature which in simple words mean that Rafi toiled so hard but could not achieve the heights of KK.
(4) His point No. 12 implies that ‘Rafi is not a legend’.
Will any person with normal mental faculties ever call Rafi’s songs boring? Will anyone with slightest sense of music ever conclude that Rafi is not a legend? His statements “…..we have tons of rafi clones in every town and village around the world. please show me a proper kk clone…………”, “……….his (KK’s) voice modulation suited all the hero’s he sang for…….” are not merely laughable but are outright canards.
How many Rafi’s clones does this gentlemen know of that are even half as good as Rafi was? It is well a well known fact there are hundreds of Kishore’s clones around and can be found in many bylanes of Kolkota. Rafi’s ability to mould his voice to suit the actor (for whom he is singing) is so well known, applauded and celebrated, well discussed and concluded attribute that, not recognizing this and attributing this aspect to Kishore will be a height of travesty.
The coterie of Kishore fans greatly rejoice such posts and justify the same under the gerb of ‘technical comment’. They are actually not Kishore fans. They are anti-Rafi brigade.
I request all readers to read ‘between the lines’ of the Kishore fan’s post. In my posts 15 and 22 I had made the same point that these Kishore fans exhibit their anti-Rafi psyche in a very systematic and sophisticated way. That stands proved. The mask of sophistication has slipped and the real face is out.
-J.K. Bhagchandani
Hans sahab – 30
The article does not project any rivaly, rather it is beautifully written. Any rivalry, that has to arise, might be from your post among fans of both singers. I hope you understand.
Dear Friends,
An excellent article which clearly explains the friendship b/w two golden greats. While Rafi was naturally one either singing or being a great human bieng, KK was a made to order product. My only doubt arising at this point of time is, did rafi saab really yoodle in the song unse rippi tippi hogai or it was somebody else like Junglee yahoo song. Request clarification and if possible i dont have this song. Can anybody provide a link to it.
rgds..KM
Mr. Hans – 30
I seem to not to subscribe to your analysis as I feel, it does not exactly catch the essence of the article which has been written after careful thought. In my view, the writer was analysing the skills and talents plus contributions by the great singers rafi as well as kishore in hindi film music world. There does not seem to be any disputed comparative analysis in the above article. But, I feel, your post puts the analysis in a different way, thus giving a picture of creating a rivalry (more so might be among fans of respective singers), though the article does not seem to convey such type of meaning in a stricter sense. Of course, these are my views please.
Regarding your comments on kishore kumar, I feel the views are subjective. Yodelling genre – kishore was special and kishore’s style of singing was also quite attractive, it is like another corner of bollywood, like mohd rafi ji. This is exactly what the above article wants to convey.
And moreover, Kishore kumar continues to have a vast following even today and I am putting up a post here from one Mr. Kishore fan from the neighbouring site. You will know by this post, that how kishore kumar too like rafi continues to have hardcore fan following
Shikore Says: post 2049 in kishore forum (an endless fued col.)
March 18th, 2011 at 11:16 pm
Hello All. Very interesting debate here. Read a lot of your comments. Some were absurd and some were good. I think we need to end this non ending debate and have some sanity. Firstly both KK and Rafi were good singers with exceptional singing qualities and should be respected for this. We cannot just condemn a particular singer and run him down. Both did well in their respective era’s and have moved on with no successors. The new breed is just trying hard to follow their footsteps
I have been listening to all the melodies of Indian and English music from the 50?s to date music and have heard all the renowned singers. I have spent a lot of time listening to KK and Rafi and after careful analysis and understanding music, I have come to this conclusion that out of these 2 singers, I think Kishore Kumar is the best Indian Singer to date.
I would like to state some reasons as to why I have come to this conclusion and would like to have some feedback on this
1. KK came on the scene during the 50?s when we had qualified singers and MDs. KK with his type of singing was a total misfit. He was ridiculed and teased, but this legend carried on with his unusual type of singing and acting stood out from the mob
2. KK is a natural singer and was not bound to any rules or regulations.
3. He is highly versatile and has a tremendous range in his singing. Most of his songs have a different octave
4. His voice modulation suited all the hero’s he sang for
5. KK sang to ENTERTAIN not to show he is highly trained or is a better singer. He is the Sachin T of singing. The other singer is like Dravid who can be a bit boring at most times. The world will stop to see Sachin and KK sing. But for Dravid, its a different story. Can we replace Sachin????????
6. I think 85% of KK songs have repeat and entertainment value compared to around 45% of Rafi songs. Most of Rafi songs were too technical and boring to hear after some time. KK’s voice is so different, that its motivating and energy boosting. Most of Rafi songs cure Insomnia (disorder where one cannot sleep)
7. KK’s voice quality and singing will fit any era of music compared to the other singer whose voice will not fit even today’s era
8. KK’s singing is so unique that even now we do not have another KK clone (we will never have a clone anyway) compared to the other singer who has such a common singing style that we have TONs of Rafi clones in every town and village around the world. Please show me a proper KK clone.
9. Although KK was not a trained singer, his songs have perfection, clarity, modulation, range, pitching, very clear vocabulary, soul rendering, passion, entertaining, etc……….
10. Although Salil C was known to be a challenging MD, KK sang some of his best songs for this composer. Please listen to the song “Guzar Jaye Din” of Annadata. This song sounds simple but is very complicated. Salil C commented that only KK could have sung this song
11. I hope the Die Hard Rafi fans are not upset by my comments. I do respect this singer who has toiled hard to reach to the top and left a mark. But in terms of public entertainment, fan following, mass hysteria there is no Indian Singer apart from Kishore. This is what makes a True Legend
12. Finally I hope I have given some valid reasons and clarified why I rate KK so high and look forward to your feedback. All the talk of Rafi’s technical singing, highly trained does not make him a legend. Kishore Kumar is truly a Legend.
Everyone say ” Hail Kishore Kumar”
Take care and give us constructive feedback”
Hans ji, that was the post. Hope you will note about the sentiments of hardcore kishore fans similar to the hardcore rafi fans.
i have serious objection to the article including its title. rivals means persons competing with each other, which the writer admits is the case between rafi and kishore, so they were naturally rivals. rival does not mean enemy, which they were not. they were not friends either. after losing battles to prove kk better than rafi, one school of kk fans have been trying to project them as friends, which was never the case. whatever stories have been planted to achieve this goal, even if true, suggest of a simple social interaction between the two. the praises by film industry people of the others, whether contemporary or not, are just skin-deep in most cases. it is true that kk, rdb and a few others indulged in negative propaganda against rafi to dislodge him from his lofty position. i have seen that happen and i would not believe stories (later plantations) which try to prove otherwise.
this article seems to be part of that series. in this article, the writer has tried to prove kk equal to – if not better than – rafi. kk was in the film music line since 1946 but till 1969 ( 23 years ) he was not even considered fit for no. 2 spot. till that time he did get just a few films outside films where he was acting and there too just sdb – the bengali connection – was giving him work. golden mds of the goldern period of hfm did not consider kk a worthy singer. during this golden period singers like talat, manna dey, mukesh, hemant and mahendra kapoor were all considered better than kk by various mds. and kk is the only one who is considered worth a comparison with rafi. that is a shame. a person who could not produce even 100 good songs during his whole career, is being compared with the one who produced hundreds of gems each year during his peak.
and one of the trademark arguments of such people has been yodeling. to me kk did not even know what yodeling is. what he has been doing all the while has been pronouncing some words in a peculiar way, which a singer blended with abilities of a comedian can easily do. the writer discussed rafi’s yodeling. from the songs which i have listened, the only song which contains yodeling is ‘unse rippi tippi ho gayi’ by rafi. the other songs in which rafi yodeled as per the writer, rafi was only pronouncing words in a peculiar way, perhaps to show that kk was not doing anything special. could kk have done the yodeling rafi did in ‘unse rippi tippi ho gayi’? the answer is a big NO.
i am surprised that some genuine rafi-fans are lavishly praising the article which is openly singing praises of kk in the garb of healthy comparison of their singing abilities. kk has even been put on the same pedestal as rafi as a great human being by the writer.
Andrea,
I have always stated that Asha has been promoting RD Burman and in turn Kishore da – though Kishore da does not require either Asha or RD’s endorsements.
She has encashed the new trend at yesteryears music.
However, let us give devil her due. I watched her live here in Vancouver 5 years ago and watched her interview on TV. Only comment she made about OPN was that he had advantage over other MD’s of his era was his understanding and appreciation of Urdu and Punjabi besides Hindi which gave he utilized and took full advantage of. For Rafi Saheb, she did appear to shed tears simply remembering him for his voice and simplicity.
your last sentence – andrea correa – is a clincher – very well expressed – totally agree with you. keep writing.
thnx 2 u kurpad ji.in fact kk cudn’tsing classical,quali,bhajan,high pitch & patriotic songs where as mr was master of master of all.so comparison of d 2 isunpractical.best wishes
One singer who has some of the Best songs with mohd rafi saaheb is asha bhosle.
but alas, she will never ‘say’ she enjoyed singing with mohd rafi saab. and, she was brought in to limelight by op nayyar saaheb. she will never, never acknowledge about opn too.
she has given a host of pedestrian flop songs with her rd burman. a prominent journo told me once : for her utterances about rafi and opn, rdb and kishore would have disagreed with her and also slapped her.
Is she praising rdb to gain maximum royalties???
how i wish she had a better “pr”…..
post 23 takes the cake
Dear J K Bhagchandani ji
My deep respects and regards for you. I agree with your points. Each forum there are some mischief makers and in fact at times, we too showed our anger in form of some posts, but without compromising decency, – only to counter such nonsense posts and not with any other intention. People can clearly know that we put such posts only to counter the “intruders” and not to show any legend in a wrong way – never.
The musical legends produced by indian industry are all wonderful and they have entertained the masses like anything. Cheers.
There cant b any comparison.KK has many limitations which MR didnt.KK’s songs can b sung by anyone.
Abhishekh ji (Post 20):
You say: “kishore fans never disputed rafi’s superiority over kishore in an overall manner and on technical terms.”
You may be right in case of some Kishore fans. But, with due respect, your observation can not be generalized. There are a couple of Kishore fans about which my observation in my earlier post is absolutely true, and for those, I stand by each word of what I wrote. They do the Rafi bashing in a rather ‘systematic’ and pre-determined way. To dub their utterances to ‘honorable comments’ would be refusing to read between the lines. But yes, as I said earlier, they do wear a façade of decency.
Coming to the post of Narain Shekhar in True Voice column, it is indeed a real non-sense. Highly condemnable. My not responding in that trail is mainly because I go that trail very very less. I read that only after you pointed out. I totally condemn such posts and reiterate that there is no place for such posts in any forum. I request the administrator to device a mechanism that such posts are not allowed on this site. But Abhishekh ji, I have a point here also. People like Narain Shankar are like intruders on this site, kind of ‘hit and run’ characters. On the hand the Kishore fans whom I targeted are the regulars, forming the core group of that site. Hope you understand the difference.
Lastly Abhishekh ji, I have no issues with you. I respect you tremendously for your wonderful, balanced and to the point comments. Let us agree to disagree on a few matters. Incidentally you responded only to one aspect of my view point of my earlier post. Any comment on my other observations that I posted?
-J.K. Bhagchandani
Hi All Music Lovers.
I love and respect Rafi Saheb too much for His great singing ability and versatility. Whenever I want to hear Old hindi film songs I hear 99% of time Rafi Saheb. But I always respect Kishore too. There is no doubt about his great singing ability. I always believe a person who can not enjoy the great songs sung by Rafi will not be able to enjoy Kishore and vice versa. We must not be biased towards our choices and show other as inferior. Was kishore not able to match the Rafi’s ability that was shown in Pyasa, Guide while singing the songs of Amar Prem? The three songs sung by Rafi in Guide like Teare Mere Sapne, Din Dhal Jaye and Kya se Kya Ho Gaya were marvellous. In the same way in Amar Prem Kishre has managed the Karishma of Rafi Saheb in singing three songs like Chingari Koi Bhadke, Kuchh to log Kahenge and Ye Kya Hua Kab Hua. I request you all to please not disrespect music by disrespecting the Singers like Rafi and Kishore. They were great and will remain great. Individual’s choice can be different but we should not add the tag of “Better” with anyone. I always had inclination towards Rafi’s voice and songs in the same way other’s can have for Kishore. I always maintain the dignity of both Singers and also expect the same from others. Please don’t make groups on the name of Rafi and Kishore. Please make group for the SOULFUL and lovely songs and music. Long live Rafi and Kishore.
Post 15 & 16 – Mr. J K Bhagchandani and Mr. Ahmed kutty
Kishore fans never disputed rafi’s superiority over kishore in an overall manner and on technical terms. The dispute and the posts were for different issues. For that matter, many have told that (including kishore fans) rafi was indeed superior as a playback singer when compared to others (excepting ghantasala in some genres)
Next,
“the terminologies they use for Rafi fans… the lesser said the better”
What about one Mr. Narain Shankar and others who have posted all nonsense in true voice col. in rafi site ? The comments are more than degrading than the honourable comments of kishore fans. One need not worry regarding the comments there such as al qaida of music or terrorists – in fact more bitter terminologies have been used by rafi fans – the evidence is true voice col. – it can be checked. Sadly, Shri Bhagchandani ji is no where available to condemn such comments.
dear chowdhry sahab,
a great effort by you – leaves the reader fully satiated.
i fully agree with nageshbhai siddhanti and he has ec hoed my sentiments.
i am writing this with a smile on my face
fans of both these legends are normally like ” women ”
you cant praise one woman in front of another.
though the world knows which of these two was truly superior
i would not like to talk like the ignorant fan.
both were legendary singers and great humans.
lets have more from you chowdry sahab.
ramesh narain kurpad
hazaro gaane rafi saab ne hindi me gaye, mujhe taras aata hain aap sabhi par ki saare coments english main kyo? kya wo hindi nahio samajhate?
rafi saab aur kishore kumar ki tulna karna beimani hain, phir wohi baat kaha raja bhoj aur kaha gangu teli ?
agar main sach kahoo to 70-80 ke dashak main rafi saab ke jo sur the wo sur keval rafi ki hi baat thi kisi aur ki baat nahi thi, aur rafi saab chahte to lata-asha jaisi monopoly bhi chala sakte the, lekin nahi, kyo? kyo ki wo khuda ke sachche bande the, gayaki ke sachche pandit the.
aur pandit ke samne koun tika hain? kyo nahi noushad saab ne kk se gana gawaya? kyo ki we jante the use sur ki pakad thi hi nahi.aur aiso ke sathwe apna sir khapana nahi chahte the.
77-80 ke bich rafi saab ne kamal kiya hain,dhyan do………
(1) maine sau baar khayalo ke banaye khake………………….
(2) hosh ke sahil pe mujhko ab na aane dijiye…………………..
aise anginat gane hain…………
ant main…………………
KOI TO HO JO RAFI SAAB KO BHARAT-RATNA DILWANE KI KOSHISH KARE. KYA AAPKO NAHI LAGTA KI RAFI SAAB BHARAT RATNA KE SACHCHE HAQDAR HAIN?
Rafi saab had performed so many live programmes in
various places of kerala.in calicut he had live programmes
few occassions. once in calicut he started with the song
“madhubhan me raadhika naachere” and after the
programme press to asked rafi saab since he is a muslim why
he started with a song which is related to “god sree krishna.”
rafi saab replied “we should respect all relegions.”
as far as jelousy is concerned, it is a sort of mental illness.
once yesudasji was telling when he was a student of a
musical college in trivandrum he used to participate for
various music competetions and when ever ho got first
place,he used to go to one of his teachers to inform it.
that teacher was not in a position to accept him as a
carnatic musician and treated him very badly.once the
teacher used a very bad and yesudasji run away by
crying.
the greatness of rafi saab in various aspects we can see
through his songs,the comments about him told by various
co singers,various musicians and music directors.the anti
rafi attitude by some people is merely because of jelousy.
the most painful thing is these people tried to bring innocent
giants such as ghantasaala and others to defend their own
preachings which was not successful.because of the popularity
of rafi saab this divine site is flourishing at the same time we
can see the situation of the site of thir idol.
i think each rafi fan is loving rafi saab above their beloved one
and the energy and spirit each one is getting from the critics
of rafi saab.
On this subject of Rafi vs. Kishore many articles have been written, umpteen number of comments have been posted on this forum, on Kishore forum and elsewhere too. But I guess that this write-up should be ranked right at top. It is very apt, analytical, unbiased and objective.
But I have a point. Not everything is wrong in comparing the two greats. When two contemporaries have remained at top at one or the other time, comparison by respective fans becomes inevitable. It is also true that such comparisons are mostly started by fans only. The phenomenon is common among fans of top artists of all fields, and it is not restricted to playback singing only. But one has to do it in an unbiased manner (free from regional fixations) without hurting the feelings of fans of one or the artist. While there have been a handful of fans on this site who sometimes go overboard on this matter, the situation at the other forum (Kishore’s) is far too worse. Only thing that governs that site is anti-Rafi-ism. Though it must be admitted that they present a façade of ‘decency’ but that façade or mask slips many a times exposing their reality. Consider the following:
(1) More than 90 percent of their posts are posted in the thread ‘An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar’ where they fully vent their anti-Rafi psyche. In the process some wonderful write-ups on that forum ‘Woh Meri Taraf Yun Chale Aa Rahein Hain’, ‘Kishore Kumar-Gulzar : Deep Voice in Deep Poetry’ etc. have gone un-noticed with non of those self-proclaimed gyanis of all forms of music even bothering to comment. Obviously they are very busy with their favourite activity of Rafi-bashing on another above said thread.
(2) Any article/ write-up anywhere that is even remotely critical of Rafi is gleefully lapped up by them, and soon they are seen in a huddle eager to declare ‘I told you so’. This is what happened one Mr. Raju Bharatan wrote some non-sensical stuff about Rafi saab.
(3) They often bring Ghatansala into the discussion, not because they are knowledgeable about him, they merely use him to ensure down grading of Rafi.
(4) Terminologies like ‘Ordinary Singer’ (for Rafi saab), pedestrian (for Rafi’s rendering of Kuhu Kuhu bole koyaliya….) have been used by these people in various posts. About the terminologies they use for Rafi fans… the lesser said the better.
(5) Opinion of 2-3 music directors (for example Salil Chawdhary, Anil Biswas) about Rafi saab is highlighted out of proportion and conveniently ignoring the opinion of many fold number of music directors who opined that Rafi was the ultimate in playback singing.
(6) They have never acknowledged the stunning come back of Rafi saab in 1977 and the fact that afterwards till his untimely demise in July 1980, the momentum was with him.
(7) They have never acknowledged the fact that supremely talented R.D. Burman ruined his career (or should we say wasted his talent) by being over-dependant on Kishore.
(8) They never like to believe that Dev Anand’s downward slide began when he almost completely ignored Rafi saab.
And so on so forth… it can go on and on.
So in the above background, this article comes as a wave of fresh air. Hope those fans read this article and learn a thing or two.
Yes, I fully agree the rivalry was not there between the two giants… it exists in the minds of some fans only.
-J.K. Bhagchandani
Congrats for this beautiful piece which is extraordinary, pleasingly refreshing & is very lucid in its flow. I agree with all in this forum-there is no comparison of rivalry of any kind. Lets enjoy music of all greats-singers, MDs etc & let Rafi sahab & his true fans float in the clouds high above in divinity. That says it all. Such writeups must be published in the leading newspapers-for a wider reach.
Kishore da was a great actor and good singer as I think.
The thing I don’t agree that 1970′s was kishore da as we know that mukesh ji was there and mohd rafi gave many super hit songs to c grade films and music directors but kishore gave songs to supers star like Rajesh Khanna and mr Bachchan,in 1980 mohd rafi sang only for 8 months but If am not wrong he sang more than any other singer and mohd rafi…..
What an article! The best till date on Rafi and Kishore. They were definitely honest competitors but not rivals. It is heartning to read an article praising Kishore da on Rafi forum. That’s the way it should be. On the other hand so called kishore fans do not miss any opportunity to go after Rafi sahab on their forums. These ignorant fans should take a cue from this article about the positives of common sense. They belong to us all. We are nobody to restrict them to a particular fan base.
As far as singing is concerned, Rafi has no match. He is no. 1 to 10.
The fine and expressive way he sang different songs can not be attempted by other singers including Kishore.
kishore was a good singer with rich voice but had a limit.
Popularity and quality of singing are two different things.
When rafi sahab was more popular, he was not better singer than he was less popular.
Rafi, with his soft velvet voice takes you to a dream world, in any kind of song he sings whether it is bhajan, ghazal , qawwali or a non film geet.
He has no match in male playback singing, also confirmed by Manna-De.
Only one who can come near to him is inimitable Lata Mangeshkar, though she also stands 19 and Rafi 21.
Great article very much analyzed. I enjoyed it. A lot of information you provided Keep up the good work.
I do not agree with all that is said in the article. For one, Rafi Sahib was and will be a singer non-comparable. My point is When someone do compare singers leaving Mohd Rafi alone.
I agree with post 3 Venkatagiri and post 8 Rajesh. Kishore is a fantastic singer and I enjoy most of his songs. There ends his quality. Rest everything he did (he struggled for so long) was like “jack of all trades master of nothing”.
To be a true divine, gifted an artiste must match equal character qualities with him/her. That divinity was there with Mohd Rafi in every aspect of his life, to prove that he is God Sent. And you rightly mentioned the bad qualities of KK in the beginning. So I beg to differ on the statement “two of most wonderful human beings” doesn’t fit for KK.
Anyways, thanks for bring up a great article.
J.K Chowdhary saab
Superb article and the best one which brings out the best in both the legends..
Congrats ! I have never read such a well analysed article
Kindly send this article to leading newspaper like Times Of India, Hindustan Times, Telegraph, Deccan Chronicle, The Hindu, Deccan Herald to name few english daily……for a larger wider audience of music lovers..
Narayan
Baar Baar Rafi Fan Club
Bangalore
A very well analysed and researched article.. The writer is at his best when he writes….”They came to ‘see’ him and to believe for themselves, that a man with the voice of God, actually existed on this earth!!!”…. Truly speaking there could be no competition between the two as Kishore was a good singer whereas Rafi was the Greatest of all times..it is in this context that i recall a song from “pyar ka mausam” –Tum bin jaoon kahaan..sung by both kishore as well as rafi, the kishore version picturised on bharat bhushan and rafi version on handsome and talented shashi kapoor..kk’s version became a hit because of yoddlings whereas rafi’s version had pain, sorrow and yet romance, all clubbed together and toaday if you listen to this song you would conclude rafi was far better than not only kk but all other singers of his time namely mahendra kappor, talat, mukesh and even the nightingale lata..
Dear J.K. Choudhary sab,
Thanks very much for clearing the air for the ignorant. A thorough and detailed write-up like yours should be flashed on the face of sensation
seekers, who built this so called rivalry out of thin air.
We all know that our voice of the millenium was unmatched and unsurpassed in every aspect in the singing dept., and it was gracious of Kishoreda to have
publicly acknowledged that. Having said that Kishore’s collective brilliance and all-round contribution to Hindi Cinema as an actor, dicrector and singer, demands a very special place for him too.
Healthy competition is a key determinant that helps bring the best in a professional and to the joy of music lovers, the golden era music was well
spread out in different genres, had many high caliber composers challenging
each other with great compositions. We are just fortunate to be in an era
to appreciate that.
The point I take home sir, is that one could remain a true Rafi fan
and still eulogise other singers in deserving instances, without the fear of losing one’s own identity.
Haven’t you just demonstrated that in your brilliant essay?
Sincerely,
Nagesh
Beautifully written piece.Every aspect was covered.I like to add two other hits,favorites of mine,sung by the duo-one from KHOJ and the other one from AKALMAND-
J.K. Choudhary saab,
A well written write-up on two legendary figures in music world. Also your analysis recalls the fued going on in Kishore site where there are many fans of both the legends spent relentless efforts proving the supremacy of kishore over Rafi Sahab vice versa, in that sense all were broke down the pens and dried up the inks, written volumes of information which is enough to saturate this rivalry. Your article ensnares from all corners the information relevant to the subject you have chosen, not only that but for some extent you did propagate that both were great friends as well as rivals (professionally).
One of the most comprehensive and best written articles that I have read in recent times. Many congratulations Jagat Kant Choudhariji for this master stroke. You have written with a very free hand, words flowing as though you were speaking your heart out. You have left nothing, nothing at all for anyone to add more to it. Such great articles prove time and again that the genuine music lovers and fans of Rafi Sahab are themselves crafty and can come up with some of the best essays ever. A million thanks to you. I would not like to pin point anything that you have missed, since you have not. On the contrary, such an exhaustive article has to be read again and again. One yodeling song of Rafi Sahab however is one that I would have added : DIL KE AAIYENE MEIN TASVIR TERI REHTI HAI from the film “aao pyar karein” where towards the end there is extensive and very lovely yodeling by Rafi Sahab.
Who ever said that there is a rivalry!!!
Rafi was crystal-clearly the best singer of all times!!!
For that matter, KK, though a very good singer, does not figure in my first 5 ranks of best singers!!!
hats off jagat kant choudhariji for bringing out such a master piece. an absolutely well analysed article. great.
regards
ashok parekh
rafi saab was the mix of so many extra ordinary qualities
which an ordinary man cannot possess.the unmatchless
combination is the cause of his ever green popularity and
the existence of his voice which no body can dream of it.
once rafi saab performed a live programme in calicut and
the first song he sung was “aaj mausam badaa bai maana”.
somebody record the songs and in the next day morning
it is plyed in the street and the result was traffic jam.i think
in addition to his various qualities,he was a crowd puller just
like a film star and no other play back singer in india male
or female other than rafi saab.
his various qualities are discussed here in so many times.one
of his qualities “generosity” is well known.when he received the
“padmashree” he told let all get “padmashree”.
kk slapped the guy who said against rafi saab also told rafi saab
can sing in hundred ways which he cannot.i think this topic will be
discussed like the topic “voice of Mohammed rafi”