Did R.D.Burman really preferred KK over Rafi?
This article is written by Mr.H.V.Guru Murthy.
A regular browser to web site mohdrafi.com, having gone through the letters of Rafi lovers would assume that R D Burman did not utilize Rafi properly, instead he preferred Kishore Kumar. Because of this reason, Rafi Fans are still upset with RDB even though he passed away a decade back.
Yes, it is true that RDB preferred KK over Rafi during early seventies. For that matter, which Music Director or Actor or Producer or Director will not have his preference. It was well known that Raj Kapoor always preferred Mukesh, Manoj Kumar preferred Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor, B.R.Chopra films had Mahendra, MD Ravi also had plenty of songs with Mahendra so also O.P after he broke with Rafi. Similarly OP always had either Asha or Geetha Dutt and never Lata. Salil also used all other Singers. Director Subba Rao insisted on Mukesh for SAATHI even though the hero was Rajendra Kumar and MD Naushad, two Rafi Fans. Even Kalyanji Anandji had many films with Mahendra Kapoor, Mukesh and KK even though Rafi was instrumental in their raise through JAB JAB PHOOL KHILE, AAMNE SAAMNE, etc. LP, by all means Rafi Bhakts, used KK regularly in the early seventies even for Rafi heroes like Jeetendra, Dharmendra, etc. SJ also switched over to KK in movies like MAIN SUNDAR HOON, DIL DAULAT DUNIYA, KAL AAJ AUR KAL, etc. Of course, the music standard came down a notch or two in that period. But, well, it is their prerogative to have whomsoever they wanted though I am sure in heart of heart, why even openly, they would have admitted the superiority of Rafi over all other Singers. Similarly, RDB also used KK for almost all his movies in the early seventies as perhaps he had some special chemistry with him.
However, let us not forget that RDB used Rafi extensively during late sixties as his main playback singer right from the first movie. He gave hit music with Rafi in TEESRI MANZIL, NAQLI NAWAAB, CARAVAN, PYAAR KA MAUSAM, THE TRAIN, ABHILASHA, ADHIKAR, RATON KA RAAJA, etc. Later during late seventies he returned to Rafi and gave hits like SHAAN, HUM KISISE KUM NAHIN, ABDULLAH, ZAMANE KO DIKHANA HAI, etc. In between, he had Rafi in CHANDI SONA qawali with Mannadey (Ek Shok Hasina Se), YADON KI BAARAT (Title song and who can forget the duet with Asha Chura Liya Hai Tumne), DIL KA BAADSHAH (this Raj Kumar starrer had all songs by Rafi), THE GREAT GAMBLER (Raftasa Mera Naam), SHEHZADA (Solo Tere Attaroo and duet with Lata Kaahe Ko Bulaya), etc.
If a person cannot appreciate the greatness of Rafi, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music. Of course, RDB was a good MD though not a great MD like Naushad, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar, SDB, etc. RD would have definitely known the great qualities of Rafi, the Singer. Just because he did not use Rafi extensively as one would expect, let us not degrade this MD who gave us some good songs in CHANDAN KA PALNA, PADOSAN, HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA, MERE JEEVAN SAATHI, AJNABEE, AMAR PREM, SANAM TERI KASAM, BHOOT BANGLA, BAHARON KE SAPNE (Rafi solo Zamane Ne Maare), PARICHAY, KINAARA, APNA DESH, ZAHREELA INSAAN, RAMPUR KA LAKSHAMAN (Pyaar Ka Samay with Lata, KK and Rafi), 1942 – A LOVE STORY, KATI PATANG to certain extent, etc. though he gave some very mediocre music in films like DEEWAR, SHOLAY, KITAAB, ZAKHMEE, RAFOO CHAKKAR, NAMKEEN, DHARAM KARAM and BIWI O BIWI (so un-RK film like), etc. so many forgettable movies as for as music was concerned.
The irony of RDB was either he gave good music or petered out to a very mediocre music in so many films. I read some where that Shashi Kapoor called RD as National Anthem Music Director. In those days, theatres used to play National Anthem at the end of the movie and the Hall doors used to be shut till the completion of the Anthem. As soon as the Anthem used to commence, our in-disciplined people used to rush to the Hall Door and wait for the door opening. Similarly, whenever RDB songs commenced in most of the movies, people used to rush to toilet.
Still, it is not fair that we use harsh and sometimes, un-parliamentary language against any body if they differ with our views. We cannot forget the contribution of all these MDs, Heroes, Singers, Directors, etc. in making the Indian Film Music so rich.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Anil Pedgaonkar, you’re talking crap.
You’re telling us that the sky is green and the grass is blue.
Your comments are not even worth replying to.
Go back into your hole.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
consider tghe following 10 songs of kishore . nobody would have been able to sing them just like the refi songs u mentioned. moreover many people do not rate o dunike rakhwale and many of the songs in your list as very great. in fact many do not like them . they like zest. it is a personal taste. “sagare jagat ka tu rakhwala mohan murli wala” is a much better bhajan by kk and mahindra. in quwwalis also the kishore rafi quwwali ” mere dildar ka bankpan”, and the “chansa koi chera na pahlue me hon score” i do not regard quwwalis as offbat songs. there were not many bhajans during kk s prime period. but anup jalota whose voice resebles to a large extent to kishore ( who ws akishore clone in college days) is a famous bhajan singer of India. again the ghzal “mee mehboo kayamat hogi, dil aaj shayar hai ” are superb by kishore. the type of ruk jana nahi songs are not sung by any other singer so well. see the impact of “hawaone pe likh do” see modern song “nakharewali”. these are not listed in classical singing. the types did nt exist. kishore’s singing have given berth top them
1 koi hota jisko apna aum apna kahalate
2 jeevan se na har jeenewale
3 zindagi ka safr
4 mai hu zumroo ( pioneered0
5 kab tak andhere manko chalenge
6 woh shyam kuch ajjeeb thi
7 aachalke tuze
8 aanewala pal
9 gujar gaye din salil choudhari
10 teri duniya se hoke majboor chala -premdhavan
May 9th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Dear fellow Rafians:
It’s no use arguing with people who thinks Rafisahab has sung just 2 good songs (a definite improvement, the number was 1, till a few days ago) and the only fault with KK was that he was just a bit too loud. Let’s brush these long repetitive posts aside and continue with our core discussion.
May 9th, 2008 at 10:10 am
ref : 606.mr anil still going thru the list and pondering over ,trying to find out gems..you have rightly taken over from your dad,may be your dad was not there when sdb had to record the songs of guide with the badshah,as kk was not suitable for these songs.
I can safely presume that your dad has listened to only two songs of badshah in his entire life and you have listened only one (please read your mail carefully).
As far as kudrat number is concerned praveen sultana got the filmfare award,and not kk.inspite of your so much ?.
you are taking about gems of kk with lp,i am just giving badshah`s five numbers with lp
1 -Nazar na lag jaaye -Night in London
2 ) Akela hoon main humsafar dhoondta hoon -Jaal
3 ) Chalkayen jaam Aaiye aapki -Mere Humdum Mere Dost
4 ) Aaj Mausam Beimaan hai -Loafer
5 ) Mere Dushman tu meri -Aaye Din Bahar Ke.
Iam not listing gems from Dosti,Naagmandir,Chaila Babu,and other movies,as going by your mails i can make out you have not listened beyond 5 songs of kk under lp.
Pleae as soon as you are able to find gems from my earlier list.i will post my second list.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Anil:
You may find LP’s music dull, but that is your view, it doesn’t take anything away from L-P’s greatness. L-P were one of the best and most versatile MD’s of all time, and were always ahead of RD.
Also, RD didn’t use Rafi to a limited extent, as you claim, he used him a lot. A countless number of RD’s best songs and albums are through Rafi, you can’t deny that because its the truth. RD’s overuse of KK pretty much ruined him, and he realized that mistake later on.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Mr. XXX,
I will post more about SJ’s musicians soon. What do you think of this song by RR, “Teri Palkon Mein Kajal” from Jay-Vijay ?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTxj7gZGFPA
Here is an excerpt from a write-up about Suman Kalyanpur I found on the web:
“Another composer who used Suman with great felicity in these later years was, fittingly, Rajesh Roshan. A feather-soft duet with Rafi from JAI VIJAY (1977), “terii palakon pe kaajal, ai hasiinaa, ham se bahatar hai,” stands out as one of the best Suman songs of its time, recalling some of the magic of his father’s compositions.”
—————–
I feel this RR composition has a little of the Roshan touch, combined with the RR stamp. There is something about the melody, its classy and sweet at the same time. This is one of the best songs RR ever composed. RR gave his vintage tunes to Rafi, and this is an example of one of them, do you agree ?.
The write-up mentions that this song is one of the best Suman songs of its time, which I agree, so that also makes it one of the best Rafi songs of its time as well, which is also true. It’s a beautiful song, notice the creative use of the rhythm as well as the nice orchestration. Rafi and Suman are both outstanding in the song.
Do you know why RR chose Suman for this song and not Lata ?. Lata would have been the obvious choice for such songs, however RR made a good choice in choosing Suman.
Suman and Rafi both sang excellent songs for Roshan Senior as well as Roshan Junior.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Re: Post 594 and 606 by Anil Padgaonkar
From the misspelled and grammatically error-filled gibberish in the above posts, I could infer the following:
• The insanity and lack of musical taste is hereditary for the writer.
• He realizes that his favorite singer kk had a serious lack of talent in many fields of music. So he proclaims that those aspects of music are not important at all.
• He can not raise the level of his favorite singer. So he is asking us Rafi fans to lower down our standard. Take out the melody, delivery, sweetness, classical aspect and the variety from Rafi sahab and then compare kk with him.
Why does not he get back to his kk forum and talk all the nonsense he wants? Coming here and showing his ignorance does not serve any purpose. He is only forcing us to tell the truth about his favorite singer whom some of us, including my self, like – after Manna Dey, Mukesh, Talat Mehmood, Hemant Kumar and Mahender Kapoor.
I agree with some other posts in this forum that number of great kk songs can be counted on the fingers of two hands. Recently I bought a DVD of kk songs, “The Unforgettable Kishore Kumar” (SKY production). Most of the songs in this DVD are forgettable – closer to trash.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Post 606: mr.anil: composers from 1945 to 80 used rafi jis voice non-stop and rafi saaheb was the leading and most sought after singer. kishore came second and concentrated on acting and other trades - for a living. We love KKs songs, some of them just like we love songs of other singers . most of r.d.b. kishore songs were flops from 73 onwards and l.p. used kishore better than most of the composers barring s.d.burman.
true, kk overtook rafiji - but that does’nt make kk a better singer than rafi saaheb.
and in may, june, july 1980 rafi had taken back his numero uno position in the field of playback singing - thanks largely to laxmikant pyarelal. your comparisons herein has already been stated hence its repetitive and usually boring.
binu nair.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:35 am
In my last post, the sentence should read as:
“Aanewala Pal” pales in comparison to any song I listed, there are countless Rafi songs that are much greater than “Aanewala Pal” from the RD-Rafi combo as well as Rafi songs in general.
Also, even KK said that LP didn’t give him their best songs. Laxmikant mentioned “But Kishore Kumar would always complain that we never gave him our best songs”.
Yet Anil is out to prove otherwise, something that is not true. And why would LP give KK their best songs when Rafi was there, who was a much better singer. When comparing the LP-Rafi and KK-Rafi output, one can clearly see that LP-Rafi is miles ahead in terms of quality songs compared to the LP-KK combo.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:47 am
ref to 606::
kk fans are intolerable, joke of the century by this person-rafi sung only two good songs…………
plz write such garbage here, best site to write the garbage, i providing the link for your convenience ::
http://www.yoodleeyoo.com/
by the way, aapke pitaji burman da ki team mein the ya anil biswas ki?? kyoki burman da ke pasandida gayak rafi sahab the, ye to pata hi hoga aapko?
aur dekha jaye to kishore da ke sar pe burmans ka hath tha isliye tik gae wo. warna unki okaad nahi thi madan mohan, roshan, naushad jaise surile sangeetkaro ke sath gaane ki…
May 9th, 2008 at 1:45 am
Very true said by someone, ‘Pyar hai ek nishaan kadmon ka…’ is far far better than ‘Chingari koi bhadke…’.
May 8th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Ref. Post 606:
How do you know those Rafi songs with RD did not click ?. Those songs I mentioned are among their best as well as popular gems from the Rafi-RD combo. Aanewala Pal pales in comparison to any song I listed, there are many Rafi songs that are much greater than Aanewala Pal from the RD-Rafi combo as well as Rafi songs in general. The main reason for the downfall of RD was not using Rafi as much as he should have and overusing KK, as well as choosing the wrong singer for particular songs, and most of these are KK songs. From 1975 onwards, you can count the RD-KK gems on your fingertips. Why don’t you make a list of RD-KK gems post 1975 and we can judge which ones are in the same class as a good number of them before 1975. From 1975 onwards, Rafi has better songs under RD than KK. Asha never exceled over Rafi in “Churaliya Hai”, this song was made for Rafi to enter and steal the show as usual which he did. Had KK sung it, it would have been average.
Actually it is rubbish that KK can do taans, if that was the case then Pancham would have taken him in the qawwali’s he produced. The KK version was modified to suit KK because he could not sing the classical version. You really need to inform yourself about what really happened instead of writing things out of thin air. KK’s version is so simple, nothing that great in it, Parveen Sultana’s version takes the cake, whereas KK just sang it like he did any song, no great shakes. You can’t compare KK’s lack of taans with Lata’s ability to sing taans. Look at the songs of Aandhi, they’re known as Lata songs, KK falls flat, another wrong choice by Pancham here. RD selected KK because he may have wanted KK to sing that song. “Dukh sukh ki” was the soul of Kudrat and not “Humein tumse pyar kitna”, there is no way KK could have made the same impact had he sang Rafi’s song in the film. Compared to other RD-KK gems, “yeh shaam mastani” is ordinary for me.
There is no bias against KK, its just people like you who want to forcefully compare him to Rafi, when Rafi is miles ahead of any singer. Most of RR’s soft ompositions did not go to KK when Rafi was alive, it was an equal share. RR was a very fair MD, he brought out the best of Rafi and KK either together or individually. The way you’re writing it seems you haven’t done your research.
LOL the best of LP is with Kishore ?. Are you seriously kidding. Those songs definitely don’t beat out the likes of “Chahunga main tujhe”, “Jo unki tamanna”, “Aaj mausam bada beimaan”, “Bahosh-o-hawas mein deewana” and and so many others. LP gave their best tunes to Rafi and Lata, and not KK, you must be in your own world to think they did. “Mere dil mein aaj” is such an average song, and so is “Ruk jaana nahin”, please don’t write such nonsense garbage on this site, go write it somewhere else. Those songs are definitely your personal tastes and fall flat infront of Rafi-LP songs. This is the reason your posts are dismissed in a flash by not only myself, but others here because they’re foolish. Even a real sensible KK fan wouldn’t say such things. Rafi had the best songs with all MD’s including RD, something you can’t accept, so you want to equate KK songs for LP as better than Rafi songs for LP which is foolish when they’re miles a part in terms of quality. Your statement of LP’s best offbeat songs are with KK is a joke, please go write your nonsense on another forum. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about and haven’t heard as much music to make such stupid remarks. You claim you are a harmonium player, but judging from your comments it seems you don’t know much about music, sorry to say.
LOL your dad may have had his opinions and he may have worked with SDB, as you claim but that’s besides the point, and his comments are not the truth so why are you bringing them up ?. Rafi sang much better songs than KK, and much more quality songs than KK, and not just two great songs in his career. Rafi brought much more zest to SD songs than KK could ever, as well as to all MD’s songs, he brought life to many creations of all MD’s and that’s the truth. Rafi sang well with all MD’s, if you’re comparing a singer like KK to Rafi, who is no where in Rafi’s league or class, you really are a gone case.
KK’s voice adding zest to LP’s compositions ?, another joke, another foolish remark, in fact I found KK’s voice to spoil many of LP’s, RD’s and other MD’s compositions. You may not rate LP high but they had so much talent and were always one step ahead of RD. RD’s trump card may have been KK for some time but it was also Rafi and he always had to fall back on Rafi when he hit a dead end. Lata’s version of “Mere naina sawan” is miles ahead of the KK version, one who is musically knowledgable will know this.
Now you’re saying RR may have composed some of LP’s songs, this is wishful thinking on your part, and may you keep on thinking like that to yourself, but please don’t spread it on this forum. Nope, most of RR’s milestone soft songs did not go to KK, they went to both Rafi and KK as well as others. I doubt you have great regards for all the posts here, your posts are full of lies, bias views, illogical views, the very fact that you’re comparing KK to a giant like Rafi shows that you’re foolish.
Rafi had all the qualities you mentioned about KK (which are not true for KK but true for Rafi), and much more. The emotional voice, zest, range, versatility, golden voice and so much more were all hallmarks of Rafi and ot KK. KK was never in the same league or class. The RD-KK team became repetitive after a while, and even RD’s music became dull sometime in the mid seventies until he reverted back to Rafi with HKKN and many other albums and songs. Why ae you terming KK’s lack of singing qualitites, with unnecessary high pitches or classical singing ?. Because KK could not do what Rafi could do, that is sing in high pitch or sing solid classical songs, it doesn’t mean you should downplay these qualities. Rafi could do anything KK could do (including yodel, if you havent heard Rafi yodel, you should, there are links on this site, and plus yodeling is not a big deal, its regarded as a circus act, so much for KK fans promoting it), and Rafi could do much much more.
Rafi made the best and the biggest impact of them all, KK or no KK. He was the greatest singer of all time and the best in all aspects of singing. KK was never the best nor numero uno, maybe in your little world he is but not in reality. There was no need for KK to sing, but the backing of the Burmans changed all that. You are right, he brought a lot of noise to HFM, something which wasn’t there when he wasn’t singing as much, and it wasn’t just little films, it was a lot of films. Rafi doesn’t need any justification from anyone, he is the greatest, far ahead of the likes of KK, only people like you want to put KK in the same league and class by force. KK was a great singer, but within his own range, its a pity you compare him to a giant like Rafi. For your info, the majority of musicians, MD’s, singers etc. including KK himself all think and thought that Rafi was the greatest, so none of your rubbish comments will change this fact.
I don’t view Kishore from the angle of taans and pitches, as well as disco songs as you mentioned, I view him from the overall picture, and he is no where close to Rafi. You are very bias, so you won’t accept anyone greater than KK, but the truth is there were many greater than him. Rafi was preferred much more to KK because he was the better singer, its as simple as that.
I also read one of your comments on another site about KK having a late start. You seem to hardly know anything about KK. He came to Mumbai to be a singer, but could not get a break, so he had to go into acting. It was the Burmans who gave him a break after all those years, yet you attribute this to a late start ?. If KK was such a great singer, where was he all those years, acting ?. The reality is he wasn’t that great or he would have been a great singer from before, but the harsh reality is that it didn’t work out for him. Even his own mentor SDB told him that he could never be another Rafi.
KK singing a pure classical song. I wouldn’t term “payal wali dekhna” as a pure classical song by any means, please don’t bring up foolish examples, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Anup Jalota’s voice doesn’t have any similarity with KK’s, they’re so different, I don’t know where you’re getting your info from or what you’re hearing. Don’t attribute low level classical songs or bhajans of KK which are not real classical songs or real bhajans and compare them to Rafi’s songs in those genres. KK’s voice was definitely not suited for bhajans or composers would have given him bhajans from before. KK’s voice was also not suited for ghazals or qawwali’s and many other genres, and the fact is he couldn’t even sing in all those genres because he did not have the skill to. This is not a bias against KK, this is the truth, whether you want to accept it or not, KK was way behind Rafi. Rafi was King and was the ultimate, nothing you write will change that.
You claim I’m more biased than you ?. Have you read your nonsense statements. My statements are full of facts, they’re not biased at all, your statements are all full of rubbish garbage than only mindless KK fans come up with. Please don’t attribute your rubbish to my writing or anyone else’s writing. The RD-Rafi songs I mentioned are better than those KK songs you mentioned, it has nothing to do with any bias from my side, because I don’t have a bias, but clearly you do. If you don’t want to accept the truth, you don’t have to, but judging from your writing, you have a huge bias and you don’t know what you’re talking about. Like I said, your writing is full of errors, myths, lies, no facts whatsoever, only your opinions and perceptions and you’re trying to make your views as facts which is far from the truth.
You’re right, number one is not decided by the number of songs one had sung and anyways, Rafi beats KK hands down all the way. You’re comparing apples and oranges, you clearly have very little music sense. If you had any musical sense, you wouldn’t be comparing a singer like KK to a giant like Rafi. Please don’t write such nonsense on this site, its a place for knowledgable discussion and not foolish statements like yours.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
REF : PLEASE GO THRU MY LIST,I WILL BE ADDING ANOTHER 100 MORE,FOR YOUR INFORMATION `THE SONG DUKH SUKH KI IS SUNG BY CHANDRASHEKHAR GADGIL AND NOT BY RAFI SAAB.YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE BASIC KNOWLEDGE WHO IS RENDERING THE SONG.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
anil pedgaonkar ji,
just listen to the “hey re kanahiya” by kk from chhoti bahu, he is killing this devotional song, now regarding that shivranjini song by kk, could you please tell me the “pakad ” of “shivranjini” ?? iam sure its not “hmm hmm aa ha ha”, lata’s version is much better … iam totally agree with anil cherian ji, spb sung this in much better way in rd’s tribute…
sanjay arora ji,
why to expose the weakness of someone who got appreciation by almost every great md and artist, true that rdb is nowhere in comparison to legendary greats(naushad,sj,sdb,mm)… but he was best from 2nd gen.. and that list you have provided has many movies having excellent songs by rafi, lata and asha … and i can list up more mediocre scores than this by bappi and lp just from 1980-1990, but i will not expose the weakness of someone like l-p who gave many great albums too….
May 8th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
KK was not capable of singing bhajans, ghazals, classical songs,… KK fans claim he was ahead than Rafi Saheb, so why KK didn’t sing more duets with Lata or Asha?
May 8th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Re. Post 607: Rafi Saheb sang many songs for KK, this was the biggest achievement for Rafi Saheb and biggest loss (or shame) for KK. Just imagine Rafi Saheb sing for KK, very interesting.
May 8th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
i personally love rafi and admire his talent but next to kishore and manna dey.
in fact even in sixties rdb used manna dey for aao twist kare and chunari sambhal gori. ( kishore was not in form and aas a newcomer iot would be difficult to hire kishore for every tune.) but i prefer rafis singing with opn, with ka ( bekhudi me saman the best duet ever composed in bollywood music) , ek tha gul ek thi bulbul, saraswatichandra garba( KA), raat ke humsufer ( with SJ), teesri mamzil songs , chura liya hai with rdb, rrs logoka dil, lps dosti songs and farz, jeeneki rah, do raste songs with rafi(all of them are superb), rafi with madan mohan in all songs(superb), rafi with with jaidev(superb hum dono), rafi sdb very good.
it is also fair to say ka was neutral. all composers other than SDB RDB, rr, bappi lahiri prefered rafi for majority of their songs. burmans distictly prefered kishore. on kishore’s death rd remarked we have lost our best among classical singers( the coment appered in papers). even on rafi’s death he remarked he ws possesing great talent.
i just do not like blind arguments against kishore using the concepts of taan, range classicla base . i want people to look at kishore from other angle of depth, softness, ellectric taans, superb sad song rendition a greta voice ( kunb tak andhere chalenge) when ythis song was heard a kishore’s critique journalist also wrote that when we hear this song it is felt that bollywood has not made a proper use of this gifted voice. we needed many rrs to do it. but those composers were nott there. in late eighties when kishore’s voice appeared loud it was rrs numbers which retained his position. again the fact is that he remaine number 1 till end. true rafi came very close but the last binaca had many amit songs. it is futile to think that burman would prefer rafi to kishore. psychologially it is clear that kishore and his numero uno positin was made by Burmans and it was their ego point. till the end he used kishore as trump card. 1942 love story songs are clear testimony. tthere sanu has sung exactly in kishore-RDB style. rr remarked on death of kishore that he isdoes not know what to do with number of tunes with kishore in mind. also modification of hume tumse pyar kitana is incorretct. rdb was questioned about this that was it madan mohan’s tune. he denied. Instead of modification he would have called rafi to sing it. it was a unique experiment one version ( classical) with mujra situation and on lata’s advice he opted parveen sultana. 9 rdb nevere preferred anybody other than lata/ asha) and the distict other version for hero which is an expression of deep love. in fact on radi rdb played kishore version and for yaad aa rahi hai he prefered lata/amit version to amit version. it really demonstrates his faith over kishore.
he also liked rafi but to limited extent. after 75 he carfully avoided excess use of kishore as shmmi kapur rafi excess use of rafi had led to dethroning rafi. again lp were using rafi a lot. had rafi ben alive rafi might not have taken over kishore but would have been on equal status with kishore. at that time only a fresh new voice could have dethrown kishore. rdb knew it and instead of leting thathappen he used rafi so that there is a pressure on kishore and counterattack to lp. RR distictly produced good scores with kishore till end.
i find both rafi/lkishore would have been sidelined slowly the way lata/asgha were sidelined after 90s. As lovers of great singers we are thankful to god that they did not have to go through this phase. anil if i have hurt any sentiments i apologize. the taste of musisc is rather personal. with gr8 regards to everybody bye!
May 8th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Ref - 594
The KK-RD combo may be ahead of Rafi-RD combo only in terms of numbers, but not quality. If one analysis the Rafi-RD combo of late 60s and late 70s there is not much difference.
But if one analysis the KK-RD and combo of early 70s and early 80s there is a lot of difference in terms of quality. Plus mid 80s onwords there is nothing worth the KK-RD combo has contributed.
May 8th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
For Mr. Sanjay Arora:
You are absolutely right. RDB produced some gems and too many craps. I personally would rate him much below the ’50s/’60s greats, L.P, Khayyam, Jaidev and even Ravindra Jain. No doubt his peaks were pretty high (Mere naina, chingarie, pyar diwana, humein tumse pyar, yeh sham mastani, chura liya, kya huaa, et al) but his valleys were too low and too many (as the listing indicates). I also feel much of his so-called greatness is sheer hype , I mean others also produced absolute gems in the early, mid ’70s (MM, L.P, K.A, Usha khanna et al). But we are being made to believe that this was indeed exclusive RDB era.
May 8th, 2008 at 11:45 am
myk, i anm sorry. i am a musisc player whoplays harmonium fluently. the songs you referred of rd rafi a\did not click and they are average. pl notice the nahi produed by rafi in maine pucha chandes. please listen the aanewala pal in comparison to any of the rafi songs u displayed and u will note the difference. in fact main reason for a downfall of rdb was deviation from voice of kishore beacuse he produced more songs for asha with gulzar( many good) but commercially not sellable. also in chura liya botlse asha excels over rafi by miles.do u know the song hume tumse pyar kitana with kishore was recored first and then parveen sultana. the fact that kishore can not do ttans is rubbish look at the lectrifying ttaan in aankhome hhumne aapke sapane sajaye hai taken by kishore as variationand not taken by lata. similar ttaans repeat in jab bho koi kangana bole.
the lack of taana are in fact necesary in hume tumse pyar kitana to crete an emotional impact. why diid rdb slect kishore when innthe same movie rafi sang “sukh dukh ki bhari ek mal” yeh shyam mastani is not at all ordinary but a gem people love it. please stop bias against kishore.RR did like rafi but look when rafi is alive most of his soft compositns have gone to kishore.
this is not ythe case with LP. lp consistently gave songs to rafi. but the best compsitions of lp top 5 are with kishore !yeh jeevan hai 2) mere mehboob kayamat hogi 3) mere dilme aaj kya hai4) khija ke phhol pe 5) ruk jana nahi.
ok personal tases do matter. but the songs ar 1,2,3 are beyoond personal tastes.
i prefer tadadar(zestful music) so somehow tyhe lute dilem diya jalta nahi did not appeal to me and it did not appeal to my dad( expires) who worked in team of SDB. he did not like darde dil. in fact he categorically brushed of rafi by saying that he sang only 2 songs good in his life ( khoya khoysa chand, and pukata chal hu mai). he mentined about zest in songs of SDB like kora kagaz tha all aradhana songs, gata rahe, maine kaali, jeevan ki bagiya mahlegi and criticzed dull music of rd in karvate badlte rahe , kasme vade nibhayege hum, singing of rafi in jab bhi ye dil usdas hota hai, . he liked jaipur se nikali gadi and voice of shaillendra in that song. this was for one generation beefore me.
i also find music of Lp dull.
though salil choudhari has not used kishore i find his music gratat and also of SDB, madan mohan. i would like you to reflect with Lp songs mentioned by me. ya they prefere rafi but offbeat and the best compositions are with kishore and lot many god compositons with rafi ( but not best and offbeat). kishore’s voice added zest to the dull music of lp and monotonous theka.
Rd used rafi but to a limited exrtent. u can jot deny the fact that rdbs trump card till the end was kishore.
Rafi really sang well with opn. but agin kishore’s piya piya kare jiya pukare can not be forgotten.
also taans do not drive me there is more depth of voice in kishore with mere naina sawan bhado. it appeals to heart. this is a song first recorded with lata and then with kishore. kishor’s version is more poular and more good listening if u are unbiased.
u can not deny the fact that most of the milestone soft songs creted by rr right from julie had kishore. in fact rr worked as assistant of lp. if u look at tghe use of whistles in yeh jeevan hai and kishore’s singing i strongly feel rr touch there. who was the real comoser LP or RR? only rr can clarfy it.
i have great regrds for all opinions expressed here and soi donot use terms as trah zol etc. u have to view jkishore from a totally different perspective leave the glasses of taans( he could but used them sparingly), unnecessary high pitches, and classical singing but view him for softness a controlled but powerful expression of grief, the zest in the voice, the depth of the voice, the modern style of singing and music he infused along with RDB which was very much needed for bollywood music at that time, his superb yodelling ( this compensates for his lack of ttans who can forget mai hu zumroo, oiya piya kare with opn( rafi could not have got this effect), nakharewali with SJ, zindagi ik safar hai suhana) his great command over diffiuclt tunes( koi hota jisko apna hum apna kahalate yaro gujar gaye din) his immortal voice lent to songs( kab tak andhere manko cjlenge, yeh jeevan hai, zindagika safr, aa chalke tuze, jeeven se na har jeenewale).
if u go through wrong perspective of ttans ( if ttan not take song loses), pitches , classical base then probably u willnot need any singer other than rafi. alas but with all these qualities rafi has failed to maake the great impact . ofocurse he was graet and he made great impact but then the impacrt apperas to be lesser comapred to all the sttrling qualiites u attribute to rafi. then there was no need ever for kishore. from the songs u listed for rafi rdb it is clear that u are much more biased than me. when kishore died notable marathi writer pl deshpande saia a singer singing songs of life has gone. he had also commented when rafi was dead a great singer passed away. he was a friend of sudhir phadake.
with great regards. i shall be happy if u revise uour opinins rather than inspecting kishore from the angle of ttans and pitches view him from depth, softness, grief, mast, zest happiness and then u wil realize why he was called numero one. number one is not decoded by numer of songs or clicking os songs. asha has sung more songs than lata. also nazia hasan vani jairam, salma aga had all made their craze with hits!
kishore has sung a pure classical song like ” payal wali dekh na”.
aso anup jalota’s favorite singer was kishore and the voice had many similarities with kishore. i have mentioned 2 bhajan’s of kishore “muze prem ka rog laga with lp other songs are by rafi0 and sagare jagat ka tu rakhwala ( with mahindra under KA) , . kishore mentioned in his interview witnth preetish nandy that he plans to come out with bhjan lp and kabeer is his favorite.
u probably identify kishore with disco and so u brush away kishore and bhajans. but his voice suited more to bhajans than gazls and quwalis.
i also admit that at times ( and many times if composer do not check) kishore was bit loud. ythis is the only flaw i find with kishore so that at tmies rafi was preferred.
May 8th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Dear Shri Anil Pedgaonkarji,
Just imagine KK singing the follwoing 12 songs of Rafi.
1. O Duniyake Rakhawale - Baiju Bawra.
2. Apni Aazadi Ko Hum - Leader.
3. Zindabad, Zindabad - Mugha-E-Azam.
4. Subahana Aayi Sham Na Aayi - Cha Cha Cha.
5. Caravan Guzar Gaya - .
6. Ishq Ki Garmiye - Gazal.
7. Jaagi Jaagi - Biwi Aur Makaan.
8. Tumjo Mil Gaye Ho - Hanste Zakhm.
9. Mana Tadapat - Baiju Bawra.
10. Aana Hai To Aa - Naya Daur.
11. Jalado Jalado - Pyaasa.
12. Dekhi Zamane Ki Yaari - Kagaz Ke Phool.
The above songs are all unique and no body except Rafi could have sung these songs. No further argument necessary for Rafi’s greatness if you consider the fact that Rafi even sang for KK, some songs given to MR beacuse MDs felt that KK will not be able to justice to these songs.
Dear Shri. Sanjay Aroraji,
I am sorry, I should have referred to your Post No. 596 instead of 594 in my earlier comments.
May 8th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Dear Shri Sanjay Arora,
Please refer your Post No. 594. I always considered RDB as a fairly talented MD but wasted due to several reasons. But after seeing your long list, I am fully convinced about my conviction. So many films but no memorable songs which can be counted atleast on your fingertips.
As for KK Bhazans, less said the better. I am also a fan of KK, but let us not insult people like MR and Lataji who have sung countless number of wonderful Bhazans by comapring to KK and telling KK is better than them.
May 8th, 2008 at 12:09 am
Let us deconstruct Post 594 and point out the major flaws:
Anil wrote:
“RDB kishore combo beats rdb rafi many times. who can forget the classics ” ho mere dilki chain”, aanewala pal, rimzim gire sawan , pyar diwana hota hai mastana hota hai, mere naina sawan bhado 9 deep voice of kishore exceeled at high pitch in shivranjani raag the song is poular even today and impacrts in kishore’s voice), tum bin jau kaha, kahana hai aaj tumse pahil bar, muze aur jeeneki chahat na hoti, o manzi re. ach and every song is a gem and has much more variety than above mentined songs of rafi.”
Indeed all those songs were gems, but even the Rafi-RDB combo has a lot of variety. In fact, I think it has more variety. We have classical-based gems, ghazals, qawwali’s, devotionals, background songs, romantic gems, pathos gems, comedy songs, happy fun songs and more from the RD-Rafi team. The RD-KK combo doesn’t have as much variety, and their ratio of good to bad songs is not that great as well. The RD-Rafi ratio of good to bad songs is very high and their hit ratio is also very high as well.
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Anil wrote:
“aanewala pal is a type never sang by rafi. people who say rafi can sing all types bhajans etc should note this. if u note rdb rafi songs are mostly light ( kya hua tera vaada is light) as compared to ” chingari koi bhadake” and mostly only of romantic typr. the mere naina sawan bhado variety is sang only by lata and kishore( lata had numerous numersof this type).
LOL, if you claim that Rafi never sang “Aanewala Pal” type songs, you are ignorant. Rafi not only sang those types of songs in his sleep but sang songs that KK couldn’t even dream of singing. Not all RDB-Rafi songs are light, and they’re not mostly only the romantic type, they’re of various diverse kinds. Let me list five Rafi-RD songs that are in the “Mere Naina Sawan” genre which is classical flavoured:
Nagma Hamara - Bundalbaaz
Hum Jab Ek Saath Hai - Bulandi
Jab Ek Kaza Se Guzro To - Devta
Pyar Hai Ik Nishan Qadmon Ka - Mukti (I would rate this much higher than “Chingari koi bhadke”)
Tumhe dekha hai maine - Chandan Ka Palna (This is a ghazal, and its classical flavoured as well. RDB referred to this song as his “prized composition”)
Lata’s version of “Mere Naina Sawan” is more classical based than Kishore’s. The alaaps taken by Lata are missing in the KK version, that is because KK was not capable of performing such alaaps. Also, check out the tabla work in the last stanza of the Lata version, again missing in the KK version. Please do your homework before posting such rubbish.
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Anil wrote:
“YEh shyam mastani hollow beats many of the rafi numbers. the best rd rafi song is “tumne muze dekha” and “chura liya hai ” in duets asha score over rasfi.”
LOL, “Yeh Shaam Mastani” is an average song, and in duets Rafi definitely scores over Asha. This may be your opinion, but its hardly the truth.
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Anil wrote:
“instead of creating magic in “maine pucha chandse” like khoya khoya chand ( rafi’s best song) rafi disappoints with an old voice. Yesudas or kishore would have done justice to it.”
Really ?, I found Rafi’s voice to be ever young in the Abdullah song and in all songs. On the other hand, KK’s voice sounded much older than Rafi’s. Yesudas or Kishore would have spoilt “Maine poocha chand se”, thank heavens RD gave this song to Rafi.
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Anil wrote:
“in fact rdB and lp never gave any songs to YEsudas as he was thret to rafi as a second singer. true pyarela prefered rafi and so “madan mohan ” also roshan.”
Rafi as a second singer ?. You must be kidding, Rafi was always the top singer, Kishore or no Kishore. Yesudas or anyone was never a threat to Rafi. You are right LP, MM and Roshan all preferred Rafi, and you forgot to add SDB, Ravi, SJ, OPN, Naushad, Sonik-Omi, Chitragupta, K-A and so many others who preferred Rafi over Kishore.
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Anil wrote:
“but favorite singer of RR was Kishore.”
Wrong again. RR stated in a recent interview, that his favourite singer is Rafi. The quote is:
“If I have one regret today, it is that my favourite singer Rafi is not there and Lata is not singing much.”
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Anil wrote:
“almost every grat tune is to kishore . who can forget immortal rendition of “kab tak andhere manko chalenge” here there is almost no background music . the song simply sails on kishore’s soft soothing voice. almost all RR greats are with kishore to name few ” chookar mere manko, ik rasta hai zindagi, dil kya kare, thoda hai thode ki, sara jamana, koi roko na ” and all with variety of moods.”
Are you sure almost every great tune is to Kishore ?. You are wrong here again, and I’m not surprised that you are. Let me give you a sample of RR-Rafi tunes that are great and have a variety of moods:
Mujhe chu rahi hai - Swayamvar
Dil ki kali - Inkaar
Tumse Nahin Pehchan - Ek Hi Raasta
Bahon mein teri masti - Kaala Patthar
Teri palkon mein - Jay Vijay
Meet mere man ke - Unees Bees
Mohabbat hui mere saiyyan - Shakka
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Anil wrote:
“The only really grat rr rafi song is ” logo ka dil agar yedil jeet hi lena ho to ” where op style rhythm is used by rr.”
Yes, ofcourse its a great song, but there are many more Rafi-RR great songs, like the ones I listed above and more.
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Anil wrote:
“It is a fact thatpost 70 kishore was used for main songs by all composers except for lp and KA ( initially).”
Wrong, sorry, but you are very mis-informed. Post 1970, Rafi and Kishore were both used for main songs by various composers. Also, Rafi sang better quality songs than Kishore in the 70’s.
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Anil wrote:
“But lp have failed to produce gems with rafi. howsoever they may prefer rafi yet their most offbeat gems are with kishore.”
LOL, this is the joke of the day, LP producing more gems with KK than with Rafi, and LP failing to produce gems with Rafi. Sorry, I am not even going to reply to this statement, it goes to show how much you know about music.
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Anil wrote:
“Also most offbeat gems of rd are with kishore. kya hua tera vada may be popular but hardly a gem.”
Not all offbeat gems of RD are with Kishore, a lot of them are by Rafi. “Kya hua tera vaada” is definitely a gem, and it also won a Filmfare and National Award, you can’t say the same thing about any of KK’s songs with RD can you ?.
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Anil wrote:
“chura liya hai was a gem. kishore sang bhajans. in fact in a movie where lp used rafi for many songs they used kishore for bajan “muze prem ka rog laga!”. infact bhajan singer anup jalota’s style is lot based on Kishore. he himself said it in interview.”
Yes, “Churaliya hai tumne” was indeed a gem, and its RD’s best known and most popular song, sung by Rafi.
LOL, Kishore singing bhajans is another joke. If you are trying to equate this to him matching Rafi genre wise, or matching Rafi in bhajans, you are totally off track. Don’t try and bring up Kishore’s lack of variety repertoire and make statements out of thin air. I don’t think Anup Jalota’s style is based on KK in any way.
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Anil wrote:
“kishore sang ghazals as well( mere mehbbob kayamat hogi dil aaj shayar hai) and had electrifying characterstic kishore taan “aankhoe humne aapke sapane sajaye hai ” duet with lata ( khayyam composer) and jab bhi koi kangana bole pyal khamnak jaye ( RD burman). ”
Wow, a few ghazals here and there, no big deal, KK was also no where in this genre. Also the ghazals you mentioned don’t stand anywhere near the Rafi ghazals. You really are desperate to prove that KK had the same variety as Rafi. Sorry but you will never prove it because it never happened. KK taan ?, where did this come from, another hilarious statement.
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Anil wrote:
“kishore wanted to do an lp of bhajans of kabir privately just bfore he died. Also ghazal is famous for words there is lesser scope for music qawwali Is group singing. rarely quawwali’s form offbeat scores.”
KK couldn’t sing qawwali’s either, and if a film has scope for qawwali’s, then it can be used. RD turned to Rafi for qawwali’s and not KK, what do you want to say about that ?.
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Anil wrote:
“kishore expressed “hume tumse pyar kitana” in a soft voice and special pronounciation . in fact lata said she cant excel the impact of kishore’s rendition ( which was first) and suggested RD burman to get the mujra recoreded form classicla singer “parveen sultana” to match the effect of soft voice with classical nuances.”
I didn’t find anything extraordinary about Kishore’s pronounciation in “Humein tumse pyar kitan”. Yes he sung it in a soft voice, but it didn’t make the song any better. The best soft voice songs of KK are composed by RR.
Sorry, you are misinformed again. Kishore’s version of “Humein tumse pyar kitna” was modified because he could not sing a purely classical version of the song, such as the version sung by Parveen Sultana. I doubt Lata was offered this song, if she was, she would have definitely sung it. It’s a joke to say that lata could not excel the impact made by KK when she was a much better singer than him.
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Anil wrote:
“no other singer in india has sung a full song whoose other version is sung by classical singer.”
This is another funny statement. The statement should read as Kishore was not able to sing the classical version of “Humein tumse pyar”, or any real classical song, so he sang a modified version of that song. Same is the case with “Mere naina sawan bhadon”, and other songs.
Kishore never sang or attempted a song such as “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” or “Likhar Tera Naam Zamin Par” or “Caravan Guzar Gaya” an countless others, because he did not have the skill or voice to sing such songs.
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Anil wrote:
“The voice of Kishore in songs like “kab tak andhere chalate rahenge”, “yeh jeevan hai” zindagi ka safar is unimitable and immortal. such types of songs are not listed in types above . his singing for “mere sang sang aaya teri yadoka mela ” is modern and has ditict style”
Ok, but this in no way makes him greater than Rafi. You may have your opinions, but Rafi had a much better voice, much better range, and much better variety, Rafi sang all types of songs. Kishore is no where when you compare him to Rafi.
May 7th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
AND WHAT ABOUT MY COMMENTS ON 594
May 7th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
here is goldie anand’s take on pancham::
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“Pancham was brilliant,” Goldie asserts. “He soon had composers copying his tunes. If only he had been a little more dedicated he’d have left the competition far behind. He gave his best for Dev sahab and me. There were times when I’d tell him at 9 p.m. that I wanted an orginal composition in 30 minutes flat and sitting there in front of me he would whip up the most brilliant tune. Pancham’s problem was that he’d pass off B-grade tunes to directors who didn’t have such a keen musical sense. And that resulted in his downfall. However, if he’d lived longer I’m sure he would have made a strong comeback and proved that he wasn’t only a genius with western orchestration but was also a master of melody like his father. 1942…A Love Story, his last composition, proved that.”
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excerpt from this article::
http://www.screenindia.com/old/20020412/fnost.html