Did R.D.Burman really preferred KK over Rafi?
This article is written by Mr.H.V.Guru Murthy.
A regular browser to web site mohdrafi.com, having gone through the letters of Rafi lovers would assume that R D Burman did not utilize Rafi properly, instead he preferred Kishore Kumar. Because of this reason, Rafi Fans are still upset with RDB even though he passed away a decade back.
Yes, it is true that RDB preferred KK over Rafi during early seventies. For that matter, which Music Director or Actor or Producer or Director will not have his preference. It was well known that Raj Kapoor always preferred Mukesh, Manoj Kumar preferred Mukesh or Mahendra Kapoor, B.R.Chopra films had Mahendra, MD Ravi also had plenty of songs with Mahendra so also O.P after he broke with Rafi. Similarly OP always had either Asha or Geetha Dutt and never Lata. Salil also used all other Singers. Director Subba Rao insisted on Mukesh for SAATHI even though the hero was Rajendra Kumar and MD Naushad, two Rafi Fans. Even Kalyanji Anandji had many films with Mahendra Kapoor, Mukesh and KK even though Rafi was instrumental in their raise through JAB JAB PHOOL KHILE, AAMNE SAAMNE, etc. LP, by all means Rafi Bhakts, used KK regularly in the early seventies even for Rafi heroes like Jeetendra, Dharmendra, etc. SJ also switched over to KK in movies like MAIN SUNDAR HOON, DIL DAULAT DUNIYA, KAL AAJ AUR KAL, etc. Of course, the music standard came down a notch or two in that period. But, well, it is their prerogative to have whomsoever they wanted though I am sure in heart of heart, why even openly, they would have admitted the superiority of Rafi over all other Singers. Similarly, RDB also used KK for almost all his movies in the early seventies as perhaps he had some special chemistry with him.
However, let us not forget that RDB used Rafi extensively during late sixties as his main playback singer right from the first movie. He gave hit music with Rafi in TEESRI MANZIL, NAQLI NAWAAB, CARAVAN, PYAAR KA MAUSAM, THE TRAIN, ABHILASHA, ADHIKAR, RATON KA RAAJA, etc. Later during late seventies he returned to Rafi and gave hits like SHAAN, HUM KISISE KUM NAHIN, ABDULLAH, ZAMANE KO DIKHANA HAI, etc. In between, he had Rafi in CHANDI SONA qawali with Mannadey (Ek Shok Hasina Se), YADON KI BAARAT (Title song and who can forget the duet with Asha Chura Liya Hai Tumne), DIL KA BAADSHAH (this Raj Kumar starrer had all songs by Rafi), THE GREAT GAMBLER (Raftasa Mera Naam), SHEHZADA (Solo Tere Attaroo and duet with Lata Kaahe Ko Bulaya), etc.
If a person cannot appreciate the greatness of Rafi, then it can be safely concluded that the person does not have a sense of music. Of course, RDB was a good MD though not a great MD like Naushad, Madan Mohan, OP Nayyar, SDB, etc. RD would have definitely known the great qualities of Rafi, the Singer. Just because he did not use Rafi extensively as one would expect, let us not degrade this MD who gave us some good songs in CHANDAN KA PALNA, PADOSAN, HARE RAMA HARE KRISHNA, MERE JEEVAN SAATHI, AJNABEE, AMAR PREM, SANAM TERI KASAM, BHOOT BANGLA, BAHARON KE SAPNE (Rafi solo Zamane Ne Maare), PARICHAY, KINAARA, APNA DESH, ZAHREELA INSAAN, RAMPUR KA LAKSHAMAN (Pyaar Ka Samay with Lata, KK and Rafi), 1942 – A LOVE STORY, KATI PATANG to certain extent, etc. though he gave some very mediocre music in films like DEEWAR, SHOLAY, KITAAB, ZAKHMEE, RAFOO CHAKKAR, NAMKEEN, DHARAM KARAM and BIWI O BIWI (so un-RK film like), etc. so many forgettable movies as for as music was concerned.
The irony of RDB was either he gave good music or petered out to a very mediocre music in so many films. I read some where that Shashi Kapoor called RD as National Anthem Music Director. In those days, theatres used to play National Anthem at the end of the movie and the Hall doors used to be shut till the completion of the Anthem. As soon as the Anthem used to commence, our in-disciplined people used to rush to the Hall Door and wait for the door opening. Similarly, whenever RDB songs commenced in most of the movies, people used to rush to toilet.
Still, it is not fair that we use harsh and sometimes, un-parliamentary language against any body if they differ with our views. We cannot forget the contribution of all these MDs, Heroes, Singers, Directors, etc. in making the Indian Film Music so rich.
January 3rd, 2008 at 6:58 am
xxx
I guess you and I have different tastes. I can understand someone musically rating HKKN over AAA - but both were truly awesome. And AAA was lots of fun. The two qawwalis in the movie were very stylish and intricate. “Humko Tumse Hogaya Pyar” had a decent (not 60s quality) tune BUT the using of 4 great singers well & in good chemistry is enough to overpower any shortcomings. You JUST can’t go wrong with Lata, Kishore, Mukesh, and Rafi! I can clearly see someone make a distinction between popular & great with “My Name is Anthony Gonsalves” so I’ll make no mention of it (nevermind irony). I also dare to say that you have not watched all 200 scores that LP produced in the 80s (neither have I! so we’re both on same boat) to be able to say only 30 albums are great. You are right that “O Mumy Mumy” wasn’t a great song - but that was LP yielding to commercial - just as they did with “Tu Cheez Badi Hai Mast Mast” which became iconic uberpopular! Can you blame them? Did they have a choice? Yet with the former song, in the same movie “Deewana Mastana” you have a classic tune given to Sonu Nigam and another very good duet given to Alka Yagnik (excellent singer) and Vinod Rathod (not so good) that you would have fully appreciated had the singers been Rafi & Lata. Kaate Nahin Tak Ye Din Yeh Raat was a CLASSIC, EXCLLENT composition - the only criticism you could say is that the other singer wasn’t the Empress Lata Mangeshkar. To rate RDB over LP is to rate black over white, orange over apple. They’re different but both classic great. LP did win the race 80s and they gave hits despite having their favorite Rafi and made singers like Shabhir Kumar, Pankaj Udhas, Mohamed Aziz - stars. That says a lot! I personally feel the COMPOSITION (not necessarily all SINGERS - try to make that distinction) in Mr India was good enough to compete with 60s albums. LP proved from time and time again, at least according to me, with compositions like “Kaate Nahi Tak Ye Din Yeh Raat” , that they always retained their talent for great music (but sometimes they had to yield to the times). Btw, “Choli Ke Peeche” - yes Ila Arun had an ugly voice and yes LP (musical geniuses) very well knew of this - but they took her in for commercial, weirdness appeal that proved to be an uberhit (not to mention lyrics, Madhuri Dixit, etc). But they also had quality - the instrumentations themselves were EXCELLENT and Alka Yagnik’s SWEET, SWEET, CRISP, CLEAN, ANGELIC voice of Alka Yagnik and it did have the makings of a great song and was a classic hit of the 90s. When LP are doing so well with those songs - can you blame them? Did they even have a choice? NO! Excellent, timeless MDs who could change with the times and be at the top in the 60s, 70s, 90s, and 90s. That’s 4 decades!
January 3rd, 2008 at 6:57 am
i also want to add that i rate rdb among the very best - right there with shankar jaikishan & his father, when it comes to musical tunes. i also think people give too much attention to his lifting of tunes and blow it out of proportion. he came up with many EXCELLENT, ORIGINAL tunes and even small fraction that he lifted - he added his own genius and made it his own.
January 3rd, 2008 at 6:53 am
P Haldar:
These you can’t deny:
1. “Mere Dost Kissa Yeh Kya Hogaya” ; Dostana (excellent by all standards)
2. “Dard E Dil” ; Karz (so stylishly rendered by Rafi Sahab)
3. “Aadmi Musafir Hai” ; Apnapan (simple composition yes, excellent singers!)
4. “Hum To Chale Pardes” ; Sargam (wah Rafi Sahab!)
These are pretty good contenders
5. “Tu Ne Mujhe Bulaya Sherawali” ; Aasha (one of the best bhajans EVER - that should mean something)
6. “Woh Woh Na Rahe” ; Badaltey Rishte
7. Last song from Aas Pas - who else but Rafi who did not disappoint even while God was pulling him away from us! Credit to LP for utilizing such a super
singer. Great song.
8. “Saath Ajube Is Duniya Mein” (excellent compositions, two great singers)
These you can question but they are excellent
9. “Bane Chahe Dushman Zamana Hamara” ; Dostana: (even a 5 yr old can understand emotions of Rafi Sahab in the song & love the composition so much that he
watches the movie 6 times just for that one song - that itself warrants this song a mention).
10. “Shirdwale Sai Baba” ; AAA
11. “Parda Hai Parda” ; AAA (intricate composition, excellent rendering by Rafi Sahab)
12. Title Song ; Chor Sipahee (A very underrated Rafi-Kishore duet. The beginning by Rafi is so lively, full, and melodious).
13. “Dafliwale” ; Sargam
14. “Salam Hai Sawan Mein” ; Aasha
15. For the following song - I admit the lyrics are silly / mediocre compared to 60s - but be objective and give attention ONLY to the compostion / tune (not to mention Rafi Sahab’s amazing voice) if you can. The interludes are so melodious and excellent transitions! Love the harmonics! “John Jani Janardhan” from Naseeb. Great composition, great singer.
Haldarji - you may only accept half of these - but they do prove that LP never lost its talent for great music. Additionally, the list also emphasizes how LP compositions are rendered 100% and the songs instrincially become great simply the excellent decision to use the Emperor & Empress - Rafi & Lata. At the same time, you are right to say 80s didn’t really have 60s quality so often - but you admit yourself commercial and quality don’t always match and that a 1960s quality gem in 1980 would struggle to sell and so LP had no choice. It’d be unfair to expect them to do it. I’m not comfortable rating RDB over LP - you are TRULY comparing apples & oranges here. Additionally, you can’t so nicely sweep under the rug RDB’s poor decision not to fully utilize Rafi. LP did a great job with utlizing Kishore too - even if they were Rafi-centric. To me this is a big deal in an objective viewpoint for juding MDs (and not the biased viewpoint of the Rafi fan that I am). It is strong plus for LP to have made great use of Kishore and give him some of their best compositions (and get most memorable songs in return) and also have their name attached to some of Kishore’s best. I give credit to RDB for coming up with unique, different, yet GREAT compositions. I know it sounds ironic for someone who was known to lift tunes - but RDB was a genius who added his own trademark to it. LP remained with traditional, Indian melody (traditional is not as unique) and gave some immortal songs. Apples & oranges - but I rate both in the highest tier of fruits (music directors lol).
January 2nd, 2008 at 11:02 pm
refer to post 234 & 235
i accept d points
“If R.D. Burman did not use much Rafi Saheb in the 70s, it was RDs loss and not Rafi Sahebs”
&
” Rafi Saheb’s name and fame is far bigger than RD’s”
as rafi sahab was gr8tst even in 70s
and rdb never gave any song which cud match d quality of
1.man re tu kahe na
2.jinhe naaz hai
3.aaj k raat mere dil ki salami… & a bulk of songs can b added to d list
also i wud like to add one more point if rafi sahab wud rendered all those rdb’s tunes, the status of rafiji wud remained same as it is now…
as it was 40s,50s & 60s music who made rafiji lord,,
rdb’s music has lot to do wd kk rise but nothing to do at all wd rafi sahab..
as rafiji was always remained numero uno… so wat if rdb preffred kk more, i dn think it caused any harm to rafiji… also KK never got any filmfare under rdb in 70s but yes it was only rdb’s music who gave kk some space to breath.
so its a fact dat rdb never reached d heights attained by rafiji…
but we cant deny the anodr fact dat rdb was most talented md among his contemporaries ..
he was equally acclaimed in classes & masses…
in d words of salil choudhary-”The only musical phenomenon
that happened in the last
20 years of our film era.
”
even many of d vetran mds shared d similar thoughts abt rdb,, and also he contributed maximum in terms of quality among his contemps(lp,ka,rr,bl,rj) ..
so plz dn compare rdb wd lord rafi sahab as he is far behind frm d rafi sahab
,, no can reach d heights of rafi sahab
January 2nd, 2008 at 9:06 am
mr. anonymous, I’ve posted several lp compositions from the 1964-69 period. For the sake of discussion, can you cite 15 or more lp songs from the 1974-79 period that match or surpass the songs given below. It is possible that I have some biases that may be cleared by your post.
chahunga main tujhe (dosti - rafi)
rahi manwa (dosti - rafi)
jaanewalo zara (dosti - rafi)
mere mehboob qayamat hogi (mr. x in bombay - kishore)
tum gagan ke chadraama (sati savitri - manna & lata)
hui sham unka khayal (mere humdum mere dost - rafi)
na jaa kahin ab na jaa (mere humdum mere dost - rafi)
ajnabee tum jane pehchane (hum sub ustad hain - kishore)
aane se uske aaye bahar (jeene ki raah - rafi)
yeh dard bhara afsana (shreeman funtoosh - kishore)
suno sajna (aaye din bahar ke - lata)
khizan ke phool (do raaste - kishore)
yeh reshmi zulfe (do raaste - rafi)
maajhi chal ho maajhi chal (aaya sawan jhoom ke - rafi)
sawan ka mahina (milan - mukesh & lata)
ram kare aisa ho jaye (milan - mukesh)
aa jaane jaa (inteqam - lata)
jo unki tamanna (inteqam - rafi)
January 2nd, 2008 at 4:05 am
Before anyone misunderstands me, let me repeat what I mentioned. Who were the ones responsible for SJ’s downfall ?. Who were the ones that beat SJ, not in terms of talent, but in the commercial game ?. The answer is: SJ Themselves.
No composer or composers could knock SJ off the top position commercially, the only way LP managed to do this is due to SJ’s own inner problems, fights, Sharda in the picture, Jaikishan’s health, and so forth. If SJ had no problems and maintained their quality, no one including LP would have been able to reach them and displace them.
Rajiv Vijayakar an LP fan as well as a Rafi fan (as I have read on this forum) mentions LP’s reign from 1969 to the nineties, but I say it was more when 1970 hit, so at the end of 1969, start of the new decade. Anyways, its not as if SJ consistently produced the same high quality, then Jai passed away, then the downfall happened. It was happening before that, and the albums like MNJ were exceptions. They still had big banners by their side, and still produced quality, but some mediocre work was also there. You could say SJ beat themselves at their own game.
LP also managed to grab those big banners as well as some SJ banners, starting with JOP’s Aye Din Bahar Ke in 1966. SJ then signed a multitude of films to keep up with LP’s pace. LP took advantage of SJ’s problems and got their banners as well as other banners, and displaced them.
We must also give credit to LP for producing amazing music during this time, and music like that would have anyhow taken them to great heights like it did, but as long as SJ at their best were there, no one including LP could break through. The problem was SJ were fragile now, and LP did something no other composer(s) could do for the previous two decades. Given LP’s talent they would have given SJ a run for their money even if SJ were going strong and been a contender for that top spot, but I doubt SJ would have given up that top position at full strength.
SJ at their best, without any problems, were unbeatable and were the best duo ever to grace HFM. It is sad that problems started to arise between S & J, which caused Jai to drink more and his unfortunate passing away so early in his life. What would the 70’s musical situation have been if S-J were still there.
Definitely in terms of talent, no other duo overtook SJ, they were supreme. I was just talking about the commercial aspect. I wonder how Bobby, SSS, Dharam Karam, Prem Rog, Biwi O Biwi would have been with SJ. We might have even seen Sholay going to SJ considering the Sippy’s and SJ had a great relationship. RDB took many of SJ’s banners after Jai passed away.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:52 am
Ref Post 232:
“Chand Mera Dil” is one of the best RD compositions, the lead guitar in this song is amazing, excellent bass guitar as well and it is a masterpiece chord progression based composition. It may have been Dilip Naik playing the lead guitar in that song and Tony Vaz on the bass guitar. This song was one of the many chartbusters from this amazing RDB album, definitely one of his Top 10 all-time albums, and one of his top albums in terms of variety. Rafi’s singing is sweet and awesome and this song ranks amongst his best as well.
P. Haldar can you please add your inputs about these two musicians in the RD camp, D. Naik and T. Vaz.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:30 am
P. Haldar and XXX,
When I mentioned LP surprassed SJ, I meant by the turn of the decade (1970), they donned the numero uno position. Definitely SJ were the greatest duo ever, and LP did not surprass them in terms of greatness, but by 1970, LP had come out with humdinger after humdinger (from 1964-1970) that for the first time in two decades, a composiing entity provided a challenge to SJ and displaced them.
The reason for this was not SJ’s lack of composing talent, but basically their inner fights, the Sharda factor, working seperately except for big banners, and in the process some of their quality suffered, and LP finally managed to be numero uno. Jai may have had his last hit as number 1 in 1971 from Andaz (Zindagi ek safar) but by then SJ were scattered all over the place, and Jai’s death made it worse.
Before that SJ were still tops while LP producing hit after hit were slowly catching up. Lets just take the year 1969, LP had a whooping 17 releases and 12 of them became musical blockbusters, compared to SJ’s 9 releases and just a few became big hits. This was the year that clinched it for the duo, and by the end of the year, at the turn of the decade they were at the top. It wasn’t just one year, it was many hits before that, but SJ still managed to be tops before that, but after due to SJ’s problems, quality suffering, LP could take over. If SJ didn’t have any problems, and their quality didn’t suffer, no one including LP would have managed to take them over. Had Jai lived and things gotten better, I think SJ would have regained that top position, but once LP managed to grab it, they kept it and not even RDB, KA or anyone took it away from them. KA also provided serious competition to SJ and 1970 was a big KA year as well.
In other words, SJ’s downfall was due to their own problems and not compeition from others, nor was it due to their talent, they were still the most talented, and supremely gifted musicans and always will be. Jai’s death wasn’t the start of the downfall, it happened a bit before that. Jai’s death was basically the final blow. They still had the big banners with them, but some of their quality had definitely dipped, how do you explain pedestrian scores like Preetam, Umang, Pehchan, Main Sundar Hoon and so forth, that’s not vintage SJ music.
————————–
XXX, those RDB albums you mentioned from 1970-75 are all great, and I could do the same for LP albums during that time, which is why my view is that both were great during that time even though LP was always a step ahead in the game whether it be with producers, hits and so forth. This is precisely how they stepped into SJ’s shoes because before them it was SJ doing the exact same. Both LP and RD were very talented, and as you listed RDB produced great albums from 1975-1980 and so did LP.
You mentioned if LP were suprememly talented, how come they produced those low songs in the 90’s, well those songs don’t have anything to do with their talent, they could have been composing purely for the masses in those albums. RDB has his share of junk songs, but we don’t question his talent, because he could have been doing the same thing.
————————–
P. Haldar, I love how you mentioned that Laxmi, Kalyanji and Pancham all wanted to be the next Jai, great comment there and it makes sense.
January 1st, 2008 at 11:58 pm
well mr.anonymous……
the song u hav mentioned “kaate nahi katte” is a very good song… but it stands no where against “mere dil mein aaj kya hai”, “yeh jivan hai”(Early 70s kk-lp gr8s)…….
also i dn think its a quality song.. actually its a nothing more dan d typical song of 80s… now a days no one(or very few) wants to listen dis song as these types of songs are bounded by particular era,,,, now consider d song “chhoti si kahani se, barisho k paani se saari vaadi bhar gayi” this song is really a quality song as it liked by peoples today much much more dan “Kaate nahi kat-te”… means this song will b never bounded by d time,age,gneration,era..etc etc hence more quality song dan “Mr.india”
like most of d gr8 mds
1.naushadji
2.dada burman
3.sj
4.madanji
5.roshanji
gave the super duper quality songs in 40s,50s & 60s…
well i still firmly believe dat it was only lord rafiji’s golden voice dat maintained d level of lp in late 70s ….
also i wud like to add dat rdb also ruined in 80s… specially in 1984 all d rdb output was crap & from dere bappi & lp kicked rdb…
odrise frm 1980-83 rdb conquered quality market wd following unparalleled gems
1.humein tumse pyar kitna(both female & male)
2.tune o rangile kaisa(gr8 lata num frm 80s)
3.dekha ek khwab to
4.ye kahan aa gaye hum
5.chhodo sanam
6.khoobsurat(album)
7.pyaase udase kabse
8.pyar humein kis mod pe le aaya
9.dilbar mere
10.sanam teri kasam(album)
11.masoom(album)
12.basera(album)
13.agar tum na hote(album)
14.shakti(album)
15.zamane ko dikhana hai(album)
16.more angna aaye re… many odrs can b added…
recently pyarelalji did d orchasteration for d vishal-shekhar’s song dhoom-taana(OSO)…… and i liked orchastration really….
January 1st, 2008 at 11:17 pm
to the bengalee rafi saab lovers…..from binu nair…
i love the music of dada burman saab and r.d.b… hence i have
arranged two musicals of the father-son duo in 2008 as a tribute
to their contribution to indian music…
besides i have also kept musicals on shankar-jaikishan/op.nayyar
and rafi-lata…. most of them in part i and part ii : only to accommodate
the “jewels” these teams have produced..
friends we have a lot of music lovers in our midst.. can we all plan
few programmes which will “enhance” and “spread” the fragrance
of rafi saab’s songs than writing of other singers in these columns….
my assistance will go out to these “arrangers” , i assure this…
binu nair.. ////the rafi foundation///// mumbai… cell : 9833 250 701
January 1st, 2008 at 9:57 pm
well mr.anonymous i dnt think dat lp really overtook rdb from 1977-80…
ya lp got awrds but mostly coz of big banners & rafi sahab’s voice..rdb was no less dan lp in late 70s…
also lp did 70(approx) movies & they did 14-15 good albums & wat abt rest of movies??….
rdb did 40 movies & juss go thru these albums ,, u will find at least 30 among them really good & even comparatively more popular today…
also i think dat quality of kinara & hkkn was better dan dat of aaa(in 1977)
although anurodh,aaa were nice albums but still kinara & hkkn were more quallity albums….
also in 1977-80 period rd produced many gems
1.ghar
2.golmaal
3.hkkn
4.kinara
5.gr8 gambler(do lafzo is amazingly popular amung youths )
9.khoobsurat
10.burning train
11.abdullah
12.bulandi
13.jal mahal
14.aanchal
15.shaan
16.kasme vaade
17.mukti
18.manzil
……………. & many odrs…
i consider these albums as more quality output dan those of lp from 1977-80.
but i accept d point dat lp had superb sense of melody… their greatness was incorporating melody into song, dats y they surpassed rdb in 60s,,, although rdb introduced some new rhythms but i think in 60s lp dominated…
they gave truly gr8 songs wd lord rafiji in 60s.. like wo jab yaad aaye, raahi manva & many odr gr8s…..
lp also gave some gr8 albums in early 70s… but suddenlly unlike many gr8 mds(sdb,naushad,sj,mm,roshan) they started taking assignments in bulk and dats y dey suffered in 80s aftr lord rafiji……
although they maintained stnd in early 70s by giving superb songs like ek pyar ka nagma hai… but in late 70s their standard was maintained by only rafi sahab’s golden voice….
tell me one thing how one can bring melody into his work by doing so many albums at a time??? lp did 400+ movies bw 1970-1990… (& 500+ overall)dats y they suffered.. you can name only 30-35 good albums among those
400+ albums as their most of d gr8 work were from 60s….
from 1970-1990 rdb contributed maxium in terms of quality…. only mediocre film making ruined him…
and also mr.anonymous i accept that albums dat u have mentioned were gr8 as lp were still gr8 in early 70s but i think it was only rdb who dominated from 1970-75… wd gr8 albums like
1.kati patang
2.amar prem
3.hare rama hare krisna
4.carvan
5.paraya dhan
6.mela
7.mere jivan sathi
8.anamika
9.apna desh
10.yaado ki baarat
11.heera panna
12.seeta-geeta
13.parichay
14.jawani diwani
15.aandhi
16.khusboo .. & many odrs…..
ya he neglcted lord rafiji bw 70-75 but i dont think dat it cause any harm to lord,,, rafi sahab was gr8 enuf to produce gem wd even mediocre mds…
although rd definiately helped KK to earn money & respect wd his music..
also i wud like to add one more fact dat rafi sahab is lord of music bcoz of his gr8 work of 40s 50s & 60s rather than dat of 70s,, and it wudnt made any diff in rafiji’s stature if he wud rendered all those rdb’s compositions….
also rafi sahab was lord bcoz of truly gr8 mds
1. naushadji
2.dada burman
3.sj
4.MM
5. Roshanji(these 5 composers means a lot to me)
& rdb was not as gr8 as d above mds…
also i wud like to ask 1 ques from mr.myk & mr.anonymous dat LP were still there in 90s in strong position & wd backing of big banners…
wat they did in terms of quality in 90s?? if they were really supremely talented than y day gave such a mediocre songs like choli k piche kya hai & o mummy mummy o dady dady…..
note dat im not showing any disrespect 4 the duo, as i respect dem a lot for wat they did bw 1963-75…
and also mr.myk…. i dont think that lp ever surpassed sj in any possible aspect……. sj were truly gr8 & really made d lord rafiji most versatile by their rock n rolls, romantic numbers, yahoo frm junglee…. & many odrs that you know very well as ur knowledge base seems to be really gr8….
January 1st, 2008 at 8:35 pm
xxx: i guess that kishore song didn’t have the full legendary effect as the co-singer was not lata - but the other singer did a youthful, excellent job. there’s another solo by kishore something like, “zindagi yahi beet hai” (don’t remember) - it was excellent too. i hope i don’t sound clownish trying to promote a 1987 song over 1960 classics - (certainly not something like Man Re Tu Kahai Na) but they were excellent (even if you’re a non-kk fan).
January 1st, 2008 at 8:33 pm
P Haldar: you still think RDB was afraid to use Rafi because of LP? Do you think a genius like RDB would doubt his ability to compose his best, use the best singers Rafi & KK, and then confront LP? Don’t you agree that when RDB did use Rafi - it helped him tremendously. 1977 was a competitive year but because RDB used the best weapon in music - he got a FilmFare and beat his fierce competitors in that regard. 1980 LP overtook him but RDB used his best weapon - and came out with one of the best songs of that year (he prevailed once again). It had more to do with RDB wanting to promote KK over Rafi and so he avoided making Rafi sound great.
January 1st, 2008 at 8:29 pm
To answer XXX…: Kishore Kumar song from Mr India “Kaate Nahi Tak Ye Din Ye Raat” was as good as any song in the 70s. The female singer was also excellent. That was an excellent song - musically. The composition itself alone was a masterpiece.
January 1st, 2008 at 2:33 pm
ref post 226:
mr. anonymous, when I said that lp’s quality started deteriorating in the 70s, I didn’t mean it started deteriorating in 1970 itself. The “jeevan mrityu” duet is definitely very good. both lp and rd were immensely talented. The problem is that when commercial success becomes the sole yardstick of performance, the quality of music suffers. I think we all agree that it is very, very difficult to produce high-quality music and at the same time be commercially successful. Consider madan mohan and salil chowdhury; despite composing some of the most memorable songs in hfm, they were not commercially successful, but some of their songs are as popular now as they were 50 years ago.
Naushad, SD, OP and SJ were some of the mds who produced high-quality music and were also commercially successful. Naushad never compromised with the quality of music; success came later. OP was a maverick; if he were politically more savvy, he would have fared even better. SD was an eccentric but his ears were always close to the ground. He would try out his tunes on his servant or durwan to get their feedback. As for SJ, they were the ones who truly mastered the art of balancing commercial success with quality.
What started happening in the early 70s was really unfortunate. Pancham, laxmi and kalyanji — each of them thought that he was the next jai. Kalyanji thought he was the closest to jai, lp started sounding like sj and pancham thought he had slipped into sj’s trendsetting shoes. This left poor sj so confused that they started sounding like lp! Why couldn’t pancham idolise his dad and laxmi idolise anna or madan mohan? The three-way race left everyone scrambling to produce the next hit at the cost of quality. But in the 1970-76 period, rd did come out with some outstanding compositions that have stood the test of time.
myk, I’m not sure what you meant when you said that lp overtook sj. No one ever did. There will never be another shankar, another jaikishan. They are the greatest composing duo that hfm has ever seen. Mind you this is not my personal view; most people in the music fraternity consider this to be gospel. Jai died when he was only around 40 years. If he were alive, you’d have seen much better quality music in Satyam Shivam Sundaram, Prem Rog and Ram Teri Ganga Maili. At best, the music in those films was ok. And listen to sj’s compositions in Joker, their last outing with RK. Two Mukesh solos, “jeena yahan marna ihan” and “jaane kahan gaye woh din” with brilliant violin interludes:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aNE10ItOYCU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qb-bEZzuCmQ&feature=related
Every rk film that they worked on — barsaat, chori chori, shree 420, anari or sangam — they turned into gold. You can’t compare the music of ram lakhan or tezab with such scores.
January 1st, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Rafi Saheb’s name and fame is far bigger than RD’s.
January 1st, 2008 at 2:04 pm
If R.D. Burman did not use much Rafi Saheb in the 70s, it was RDs loss and not Rafi Sahebs.
January 1st, 2008 at 9:30 am
Happy 2008 mohd rafi saab and thank u… pls read post 219
for the ‘new year greetings’ to rafi lovers…
thou shall not rise again; thou music will ,
across all borders and frontiers - above the cacaphony of sounds,
melodies of yore, bringing joy to human souls,
songs for every mood, across all musical shades…………….
thy name is music; thou name bharat ratna - mohd rafi saheb.
by binu nair…. //the rafi foundation/// mumbai… binus2000@hotmail.com
and sargam music & magazine… cell 09833 250 701
January 1st, 2008 at 2:38 am
Rafi saheb did go thru a low period during 70’s. But whatever he sang for RD, they were huge hits, and masterpieces of innovativeness.
I was surpirsed to see the way Rafi Saheb has sung “Chand Mera Dil”, a typical chord progression based composition, a typical KK style song.
Like Edgar Cayce said, the rule of God is “you reap what you sow”. When RD wasn’t left with many first rated compositions during 80’s, Rafi saheb was no more to make 2nd rated compositions also hits!
January 1st, 2008 at 2:19 am
P. Haldar,
I am not sure if you were referring to my post on the Burmans’s success or RDB in the 80’s. About RDB in the 80’s, I answered, but about Guide and HKSKN, I have read and heard from several sources that the Burmans although having great albums after those two scores, could not repeat the success of those two albums. Both Guide and HKSKN were landmarks in their respective decades, both albums with awesome variety and fantastic songs. Also, both were denied awards which they should have won.
January 1st, 2008 at 1:58 am
Adding one more thing, when I mentioned the selling aspect of LP’s albums it was to also show that they could gauge the public taste for all those years (and even now when those albums still sell) and it was with classy and mass music all rolled into one. To do this requires unique talent just as SJ had, the ability to create wonderful music, to please not only the masses but the classes as well, and stay on top of the public pulse as well as on top in general for such a long time.
January 1st, 2008 at 1:08 am
Would like to add that both LP and RD could produce various types of songs. The youthfulness and melody aspect was mentioned before and there are many other aspects as well. If both were known for specific genres, the other could produce songs similar to that genre as well. For example, Karz was up RDB’s street and LP came out with a cracker of an album. On the other hand, a score like Aap Ki Kasam was something LP would have excelled at, and RDB came out with a top notch score. There are many more examples one can add here.
A drawback that RD had was his choice of singers for particular songs, something he should have learnt from his father who was a master at picking the right singer for a particular song. LP were better at this aspect, of choosing the right singer for a particular song.
January 1st, 2008 at 12:48 am
Mr. XXX,
You differentiated between commerically great albums as opposed to quality great albums. When I mentioned the word great, I meant it in general, good overall stuff. I think, like you, I should have differentiated between quality great and commercially great but that’s fine
. I don’t think you can call Tezaab and Ram Lakhan mediocre, they were great commercial albums, with hit tunes, and some quality-based songs ofcourse not as high in quality as their previous works but definitely better than what most were churning out at that time. I could say the same about RD albums of that time as well. You have to keep in mind that it was only LP and RD keeping some sort of standard in the 80’s at a time when Bappi’s disco had taken over. Also, the trend RD started back in the 70’s which was great, also came back to haunt him later on when the likes of Bappi etc. became more successful than him. In this case RD was trapped in an image, something LP never were stuck in.
When we say these composers deteriorated, we mean they produced sub-standard stuff later or could not produce the same standard of music as their earlier work. I don’t think we can say they deteriorated as in they lost it and could not produce anything but trash, its more to do with their standard not being matched. Let’s take Bappi for example, after 1980, he hardly produced a few albums worth keeping, most are trash but before that he was excellent. That’s called deterioration. Atleast LP and RD still produced some good music and albums worth keeping in the 80’s, lower than their standard but still listenable and good. So they did deteriorate by their standards but not totally that they didn’t produce listenable/good music at all. Also, Rafi saab definitely helped them both, and with Rafi gone, their music wasn’t at the same standard as before, and they had to do with all the clones and so forth. This is also not to say that LP and RD didn’t have their run of trash, they both did, but they also gave choice winners along the way too.
Agreed, LP were fantastic due to Rafi but Laxmi Pyare were very talented themselves. They had something in them which made them conquer the music world or over three decades, and overtake SJ, something RDB could not even do with his initial success. Only real talented people are able to achieve this, which is why Lata and Rafi backed them early on and saw the potential they had. Lata and Rafi being the genius singers they were, would not take just any composers under their wings, they had to be supremely talented and LP were just that. Laxmi was a genius tunesmith a la Jaikishan, and Pyare is probably the most complete musician in the industry, he could do it all from notations to conducting the orchestra, arranging and so forth. I am not going to comment on LP’s talent vis a vis RDB because both were supremely talented. Rafi added a whole new demension to LP songs, without Rafi the effect and final product would have been much lower, we could say the same about the majority of composers and Rafi including RDB, but this does not mean the composers themselves weren’t talented, they were including LP, and they were lucky they had the Best of them all, Rafi there to make their compositions flourish, for without Rafi we would not have seen those compositions.
You mentioned youthful music, yes RDB was the master at youthful music but LP also have that freshness and youthfulness in their music as well, even though RD was the master at this genre. When we think of youthful music we think HKSKN, YKB, Teesri Manzil, Jawani Diwani etc. but LP have a good number of albums with that element as well, just to name a few, Bobby, Karz, Farz etc. LP were masters at melody, when we think melody we think Dosti, Milan, Lootera, Sargam, Inteqam etc. but RD also has melody albums such as Aandhi, Kinara, Caravan, Pyar Ka Mausam and so forth. So it goes both ways.
Ofcourse LP in the 80’s hardly matched the quality of “Woh Jab Yaad Aaye”, no one is disputing this, but the same can be said of RD and others. Did RD in the 80’s have one song that could match the quality of “Kuch To Log Kahenge”, or “Churaliya Hai Tumne” or a “Zamane Ne Mare Jawan Kaise Kaise”, the answer is the same as LP.
Also, LP did bring melody back in the disco wave of the 80’s, with Pyar Jhukta Nahin and Hero (as well as other albums), as melody was always the base of their music. So in this case, at a time when trash was being churned out, they brought back melody.
RDB is popular for a lot of reasons. He has Asha promoting him left center and right, which adds a lot to his image. His last score 1942 ALS won an award and is in recent public memory, and he has an award named after him when other genius composers like LP, SJ, MM, SDB etc. don’t have any awards in their name. True, his music also makes him popular but his popularity is also due to other factors as well, and not just his music. LP do not get as much promotion as RD, which is sad.
I mentioned before, that I would not judge LP and RD by their talents, as both were supremely talented. They may have had individual qualitites that made them better than the other but that is a discussion for another time. Focusing just on the 70’s, they had a battle royale against eachother and in terms of quality in my view, each came out on top. True, both had their share of sub-standard albums even at that time, but the quality was still glowing.
Also, LP always had the edge on RD, whether in music sales, producers, or in other areas and always achieved more than him. Most of the complete scores sold in stores today are by LP, so to say that they didn’t produce as much quality as RD is being ignorant of facts. They may have even produced more quality albums as a whole than RD.
Yes, what sells does not mean it has to be quality. For example, Himesh sells today, does that mean most of his songs are full of quality ?. Hardly. But LP were no Himesh and when talking about sales you have to differentiate between talents and individual albums. LP were very talented (unlike Himesh) and their albums are golden and full of quality (unlike Himesh), so that’s where the difference lies and the quality speaks for itself. SO if they sold before and are doing so now more than RD albums, whether it is from HMV, Polydor or any other company, can we say people who buy them don’t know quality music but if they buy RD albums then they do, certainly not !. Because we know LP is quality, so the people who buy their albums know quality music, whereas today when people buy Himesh albums, we know his music lacks quality so people buying it could be due to the hit factor associated with it and not just about quality. Which leads me to mentioning that people buying Himesh albums may not have bad taste in music, they may know quality music, but just buy his albums due to their own preferences. So it varies from individual to individual, but overall LP spelled quality, and to maintain quality for long periods of time requires lots of talent.
Moreover, if you take all the 500+ Kishore/RDB songs, atleast half are nothing much to write about, whereas if you take the 400+ LP/Rafi songs, the majority are great. Even the 120+ RD/Rafi songs, the majority are great as well, this is where the Rafi factor comes into play.
Anyways this post has gone on long enough, Happy New Year to you all.
December 31st, 2007 at 11:26 pm
i just want to reiterate one important point: rdb could have rescued himself from lp’s onslaught by using rafi as his rescue weapon. it was rafi who rescue (and not hurt) him in 1977 which was a very competitive year for lp, ka, and rdb. it was rafi who rescued (not hurt) rdb with burning train when lp was clearly #1. rdb learned his mistake too late…and lost. later we’ll talk about why his tunes are very popular over other mds who were just as good e.g. shankar jaikishan…that’ll be for another day.
December 31st, 2007 at 11:24 pm
I still have a LOT to learn - I am not nearly as knowledgeable as xxx or P Haldar but of the few albums I am familar with
1970:
Aan Milo Sajna:Kishore - Lata duet “Aacha to Hum Chalte Hain”. One of my favorite compositions and just as good as 60s IMO.
Himmat: Hai Shukar Ke To Hai Allah - what VOICE CONTROL by Mohd Rafi! So much energy! Hear it in CD quality and you’ll be amazed at how clean Rafi’s voice remains despite all tomfoolery in that song! Big gain for LP by using Rafi - Rafi made this composition special.
Jeevan Mrityu: Top class Rafi-Lata duet that is popular to this day! (just as good as 60s)
Khilona: Masterpiece of an album! So melodious!
1971:
Mehboob Ki Mehndi - excellent album altogether!
Haathi Meri Saathi: Who can forget Rafi Sahab’s Nafrat Ki Duniya - it was just as good as 60s music. So much emotions expressed masterfully by the one nad only. To use a different weapon altogether - we’ve got Kishore Kumar singing that catchy number Chal Chal Mere Saathi. It was very popular and memorable song that kids to this day listen to!
Aap Aaye Bahar Aaye: The song “Sare Zamane Pe” was extremely melodious thanks to Rafi Sahab! Once again - credit to LP for UTLILIZING such a melodious, supreme singer and gaining!
Raja Jani: Love that Lata title solo picturized on Hema Malini!
1972:
Piya Ka Ghar: No top 10 Kishore Kumar song is complete without “Yeh Jeevan Hai”. LP made great use of Kishore’s low scale ability! Also that sweet duet from the King & Queen of singing: Yeh Zulf Kaise Hai - Zanjeer Jaise Hai!
Roop Tera Mastana: Excellent Mohd Rafi solo “Bade Bewafa Hai Ye Husn Wale” - evergreen and in Rafi’s Golden Collection
Manchali: Excellent Kishore Kumar album! Gham Ke Phasan - so melodious & smooth - great directing of Kishore’s vocals!
Anokhi Ada: Tere Dil Mein - evergreen song popular to this day from Rafi & Lata. Isn’t this the same album with evergreen qawwali from Kishore? EXCELLENT.
Loafer: O Aaj Mausam Bada Bei-maan hai….still hummed and sung and popular to this day! Who else but Rafi could have done it?
1974
Pocketmaar
Roti: hit song “Yeh Jo Public Hai” - this is what I call poor quality in the 70s - but hey - it was the Kishore wave and this was the stuff that sold - so what could you do? Composition alone was excellent! Singer was excellent - lyrics could take some improvement with that english part IMO.
1975:
Pratiggya: Main Jat Yamla Pagla Deewana - wah wah Rafi Sahab - what voice control!
Of course - I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of gems due to my limited knowlege. Some of the songs here - you just can’t put a price tag on or a finite value. Nafrat Ki Duniya or the Rafi-Lata duets or O Aaj Mausam Bada Beiman Hai or Yeh Jeevan Hai - these songs are evergreen & immortal. I won’t argue who did better in the 1970-1975 period but I’ll say that LP was excellent by themselves. Where RDB failed to help himself with Rafi - LP excelled. It was very competitive period - at the least - and RDB did not single handedly dominate that period as some will say. You cannot “dominate” the immortal songs I mentioned above! Of course -in the long term, we know what happened. Rafi Sahab was back to No 1 in 1976 and LP regardless overtook RDB.